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War

 
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 04:29 am
@Zetherin,
Rhetoric rhetoric well structured ,well written with passion and conviction but rhetoric.No your not my friend but it was an attempt to take the aggression out of the debate and it failed. I have asked simple questions but all i have received is hatred and aggressive rhetoric from a certain stated pacifist poster, how is that?
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 07:11 am
@Icon,
Ask for peace and take it in the teeth
Ask for sense and take it in the wrench
Ask for war and show you're a bore
Ask for love and prove you adore
0 Replies
 
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 08:37 am
@Catchabula,
Catchabula wrote:
Ok, a few answers, because I like this game. Bad answers do not seem to exist in philosophy. Of course that is bull; everynody knows the difference between good and bad answers. The good answers are mine. the bad answers are those I don't agree with. They are poor reasoning, irrational, irrelevant etc. Even a superficial analysis will proove that. Time to give some bad answers then...



As much as I can appreciate your enthusiasm, I am going to point out a couple of things.

One: Even the Swiss, a notoriously neutral country, has an army. No, not the guys who make the little pocket knives.

Two: Army, Navy, Air Force = A whole heap of jobs for citizens who would otherwise have no training or skills.

Three: Post Army careers, provided you are not discharged for whatever reason general or dishonorable, are actually very good for the most part. The guys who don't make are the ones who never would have.

Four: It may be an institution based on building human weapons but they are still necessary because mankind is not mature enough to control their emotions and have rational debates (quoted post is point and case).

Five: You guys need to get off of each others throats here. I understand that this is a rather touchy subject but we can be a little more polite and mature about this. :a-ok:

I started this topic to discuss the multiple facets of war, not to start a flame. We can all agree that war is a terrible tragedy and I am sure that many of us have lost someone to the tyranny of one country or another. The fact of the matter is that I want to get to the root of war; the purpose of war. I want to find the root and figure out why we have no other solution.
0 Replies
 
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 09:19 am
@Icon,
Sure armies and the wars they lead to creates many jobs but so would increased spending in public transportation, education, public works, and the arts--many of which only need basic training. Not to mention, spending in these things is an investment in community that continues to pay off in the future rather than a one and done short term benefit of making, using, and selling weapons. Sure, there is the rebuilding, but destroying wealth to replace the wealth does not have real benefits. Other than a horrible tragedy, war is a poor foundation for economic policy.
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 09:38 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Sure armies and the wars they lead to creates many jobs but so would increased spending in public transportation, education, public works, and the arts--many of which only need basic training. Not to mention, spending in these things is an investment in community that continues to pay off in the future rather than a one and done short term benefit of making, using, and selling weapons. Sure, there is the rebuilding, but destroying wealth to replace the wealth does not have real benefits. Other than a horrible tragedy, war is a poor foundation for economic policy.


I don't disagree but I also do not agree completely.

Army personnel are for more than just war. They provide aid in africa for example. They were called in during the hurricane in New Orleans.

The army is not for "War" but for the defense of our country. There is nothing wrong with defending your people.

Bush, however, was a war mongering, illiterate, possibly mentally deficient leader. He misused, as did his father and many other US presidents, the power of our defense for personal gain and for aggressions against other countries.

The United states was founded on war, built on war, brought to power because of war, achieved many things because of war and will always be war like. Still, armies are not only for war.

War is a useless tool for those incapable of sorting things out diplomatically. But it did bring us out of the depression. It did turn around the economy in the 80's. It did provide new medical technology, space travel, extraterrestrial landings, faster travel, computers, and many of the other luxuries we enjoy now.

So answer my original question. Do we still need war?
Catchabula
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 09:38 am
@Theaetetus,
xris wrote:
Rhetoric rhetoric well structured ,well written with passion and conviction but rhetoric.No your not my friend but it was an attempt to take the aggression out of the debate and it failed. I have asked simple questions but all i have received is hatred and aggressive rhetoric from a certain stated pacifist poster, how is that?
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 10:00 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
Do we still need war?


No war is not necessary even though many are convinced otherwise. The only argument that seems to make sense for war on the surface is defense. If an irrational country attacks with force, and is hellbent on a war, then the argument for war makes sense. Only a fool wouldn't fight that war.

Today though, wars are not really fought over matters of defense. They are fought because economic policy requires war, which is why former best customers turn into excellent future enemies. They have old obsolete weapons that give salesmen the perfect opportunity to demonstrate their new superior products. War is big business, and big business has bought out many politicians. That reality needs war and has controlled policy since World War II. What does aid to Israel bring? More war and thus, more profits. And in today's world, that is all that matters.

Am I being overly cynical, probably. But it is hard not to be when much of the world and the way that it has been structure requires warfare to function 'properly.'
0 Replies
 
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 10:13 am
@Catchabula,
Catchabula wrote:


Passion is one thing. Aggression towards other members of this forum is another. I can appreciate your passion for this subject and I am with you in the thinking that war is a terrible thing. Still, I am not going to project my feelings of a subject on others, especially not in conversation here.

There is a difference between removing emotion and having control over it. I would assume that war is started the same way actually. Irrational hatred and lack of emotional control. Look at the middle east.

You say that you hate anything that enables the military.. if you pay taxes then you hate yourself. Wink
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 10:40 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:

You say that you hate anything that enables the military.. if you pay taxes then you hate yourself. Wink


The old catch-22, guilty by association of being a taxpaying citizen of a country. As an antiwar activist, I find it funny that I have to help pay for the act that I actively protest.
Catchabula
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 11:07 am
@Icon,
I often hate myself Icon, I often feel confused and I contradict myself continuously. I'l not in those high realms of serene thought and ruthless consequence that many seem to be around here. If I'm agressive, so be it. If I'm irrational, so be it. It's all human, and I don't hide to be human. I'm also quite reasonable from time to time, and I may be mistaken but sometimes I produce some good ideas, just like you do and anybody else in this place. No, I'm not going to retract anything, I was actually quite honest I feel. And now a question: what are your faults? Oh yes, this was just about mine. Now we both shout "off-topic" Smile

Addendum.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 11:20 am
@Catchabula,
Catch i have not taklen offence at your attitude or your opinion but what upsets me and it happens every time pacifists join a discussion on war, i have a close family member who is pacifist,they refuse to answer certain questions. I would say always that" jaw jaw is better than war war".My problem is when one side acts without warning and with savagery, do you defend yourself, ever? Its that simple...Soldiers in the main train for peace to be maintained..
Catchabula
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 11:44 am
@xris,
Thanks and I will work on an answer, it's a challenging question. But not tonight is you agree. I spend too much time behind the comp and there's a difficult household here. Morphing into Ahnuld: "I'll be back!".
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 12:09 pm
@Icon,
Like others have said, I would probably defer to those who know more about the subject than I, from first hand experience. This is a good poem I think, by a poet who served in World War I and can probably explain well some of the experience:

Robert Service wrote:

O God, take the sun from the sky!
It's burning me, scorching me up.
God, can't You hear my cry?
Water! A poor, little cup!
It's laughing, the cursed sun!
See how it swells and swells
Fierce as a hundred hells!
God, will it never have done?
It's searing the flesh on my bones;
It's beating with hammers red
My eyeballs into my head;
It's parching my very moans.
See! It's the size of the sky,
And the sky is a torrent of fire,
Foaming on me as I lie
Here on the wire . . . the wire. . . .

Of the thousands that wheeze and hum
Heedlessly over my head,
Why can't a bullet come,
Pierce to my brain instead,
Blacken forever my brain,
Finish forever my pain?
Here in the hellish glare
Why must I suffer so?
Is it God doesn't care?
Is it God doesn't know?
Oh, to be killed outright,
Clean in the clash of the fight!
That is a golden death,
That is a boon; but this . . .
Drawing an anguished breath
Under a hot abyss,
Under a stooping sky
Of seething, sulphurous fire,
Scorching me up as I lie
Here on the wire . . . the wire. . . .

Hasten, O God, Thy night!
Hide from my eyes the sight
Of the body I stare and see
Shattered so hideously.
I can't believe that it's mine.
My body was white and sweet,
Flawless and fair and fine,
Shapely from head to feet;
Oh no, I can never be
The thing of horror I see
Under the rifle fire,
Trussed on the wire . . . the wire. . . .

Of night and of death I dream;
Night that will bring me peace,
Coolness and starry gleam,
Stillness and death's release:
Ages and ages have passed,-
Lo! it is night at last.
Night! but the guns roar out.
Night! but the hosts attack.
Red and yellow and black
Geysers of doom upspout.
Silver and green and red
Star-shells hover and spread.
Yonder off to the right
Fiercely kindles the fight;
Roaring near and more near,
Thundering now in my ear;
Close to me, close . . . Oh, hark!
Someone moans in the dark.
I hear, but I cannot see,
I hear as the rest retire,
Someone is caught like me,
Caught on the wire . . . the wire. . . .

Again the shuddering dawn,
Weird and wicked and wan;
Again, and I've not yet gone.
The man whom I heard is dead.
Now I can understand:
A bullet hole in his head,
A pistol gripped in his hand.
Well, he knew what to do,-
Yes, and now I know too. . . .


Hark the resentful guns!
Oh , how thankful am I
To think my beloved ones
Will never know how I die!
I've suffered more than my share;
I'm shattered beyond repair;
I've fought like a man the fight,
And now I demand the right
(God! how his fingers cling!)
To do without shame this thing.
Good! there's a bullet still;
Now I'm ready to fire;
Blame me, God, if You will,
Here on the wire . . . the wire. . . .
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 12:55 pm
@Catchabula,
Catchabula wrote:
Thanks and I will work on an answer, it's a challenging question. But not tonight is you agree. I spend too much time behind the comp and there's a difficult household here. Morphing into Ahnuld: "I'll be back!".
peace to you and lets not fall out over our opinions..Take care..
0 Replies
 
Justin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 01:19 pm
@Theaetetus,
Catchabula wrote:
-Xris, I don't know you and I don't hate you, I hate very few people (there are some). You are quite indifferent to me at the moment as a person, but that may change if you want to take the trouble; you can always send me a little note. I was not attacking you, I was attacking the army. Why would you feel attacked here, unless you are associating with something I hate?

Catch, that same seed of hate you embrace against the armies and war is the same seed of hate that's causing it.

Catchabula wrote:
One is what one chooses, no? I'll try to give an example that even I can understand. I may know my neighbour or not, I m open for any further (personal) contact. But then my neighbour proves to be the leader of the local fascist party. His windows are covered with racist slogans, his children are in uniform... Should I still ask about his hobbies, or about his car? Making abstraction of the dimension of "identity though choice" is actually a hypocrite thing to do.


Looks like you are allowing your neighbor to have an effect on you. To me, that doesn't make any sense. What your neighbor does is his business, what you do is yours. If you let his actions bother you that much, then the problem is not with your neighbor at all...

Catchabula wrote:
I only think that personal ("existential") choices and associations are important and fundamental, and those who have joined the army have made an awful choice.

Is that statement true? Do you know that it's true? The awful choice, couldn't this be your perception of it? That decision to join the army was theirs to make, why therefore should it have such an effect on you? The awful choice being made is how we allow something to effect us that should have no effect on us.

Catchabula wrote:


Anonymity is a thing of the past. If we want to find the exact name and location of anyone on this forum, it can be done with exactness. 5 and 10 years ago anonymity was really something but today we are moving towards transparency and frankly, there is no hiding anymore.

Transparency in the world which is actually good because it may ultimately stop the fighting in the end. It also makes us responsible for what we say and do. The internet used to be something you logged onto and played with. Signed up in forums to take on another personality and went wild with posts. Today is different.

Catchabula wrote:

The same energy is takes to hate the war is the same energy that allows it to continue. Hate is not productive at all. Seeds of hate produce more hate. Hate creates hate. Love creates love. Is there a rocket scientist in the room to confirm this?

Catchabula wrote:
Why should I hide behind hypothetical reasoning or playful analysis, why should I not speak from the heart? Why should I give in to what is in many cases just a matter of strategy, the rhetorical moment par excellence: "try to be reasonable"? I think I can be reasonable, but this was not one of these times, due to a subject that horrifies me; I choose to talk emotionally as the subject deserves.

Speaking from the heart is one thing, speaking from a paradigm of hatred is another. I don't like the war either but I don't hate it and don't hate the people who sign up to go into war or work for the military.

Do you not see... it's the Christians who hate the Muslims and the Muslims who hate the Jews and this hate and that hate and that's what causes war. Remove hate and there is no war. So, ultimately, your hate isn't helping the cause, only hurting it. When will people realize that if we carry hate, wars will never stop... even if it's hatred against war.??

Catchabula wrote:


You are enabling it. Hate feeds it. It's the very hate you embrace against the war that feeds it with fuel to continue. Seems the people become a slave to their own emotions and a slave to hatred and greed and that's why there are wars. Replace hate with love and walla, no more wars. It's like magic. If you continue to hate, cancer will get the best of you. Hate is not good for the body and it's amazing what hate, anger and cancer have in common.

Mahatma Gandhi said: "Be the change you want to see in the world."
Dalai Lama said: "We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves."

Catchabula wrote:

The true great thinkers transcend their emotions, all others are just book smart. Emotions are the very last thing you want to have control over your actions. Emotions are another form of separation because our emotions are based on the 5 senses which is of a physical existence and perception of a physical world. Our emotions totally rely on things that don't even exist and only come into existence because we allow them to and or create them.

I didn't read all the previous posts and probably won't due to time and may not even respond. Catch post caught my eye so I started typing food for thought.

Peace!
Catchabula
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 02:22 pm
@Justin,
Couldn't resist dropping in to have a look here. Justin, I thank you sincerely for this answer but I'm simply not there yet. I can hardly understand what you're saying, it seems like a message from Heaven. I just wanted to state with so many words that I am speechless. Either you are an angel and I am a man, or you are a man and I am unworthy. I can not argue with you and I will not, I will leave this place and go back to the world. I will err and learn. and maybe find what you have found: peace of mind and true wisdom. Mind there are no "bad feelings" here, I just seem not to fit in here; this is not my place and the world is wide. My stay here brought me more than you can imagine, it did not bring me wisdom but that's entirely due to me. It brought me a short moment of excitement and the temporary distraction that I call happiness nowadays. I wish you all the very best from the bottom of my heart and may your path through life bring you what you're looking for. This is my last posting. Catcha signing off.
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 02:47 pm
@Catchabula,
Catchabula;42711 wrote:
This is my last posting. Catcha signing off.


I sincerely hope this is not the case. :unsure:
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 02:50 pm
@Catchabula,
Dont leave please Catch you will upset me..promise you will reconsider.
0 Replies
 
Justin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 03:00 pm
@Catchabula,
Catchabula wrote:
Couldn't resist dropping in to have a look here. Justin, I thank you sincerely for this answer but I'm simply not there yet. I can hardly understand what you're saying, it seems like a message from Heaven. I just wanted to state with so many words that I am speechless. Either you are an angel and I am a man, or you are a man and I am unworthy. I can not argue with you and I will not, I will leave this place and go back to the world. I will err and learn. and maybe find what you have found: peace of mind and true wisdom. Mind there are no "bad feelings" here, I just seem not to fit in here; this is not my place and the world is wide. My stay here brought me more than you can imagine, it did not bring me wisdom but that's entirely due to me. It brought me a short moment of excitement and the temporary distraction that I call happiness nowadays. I wish you all the very best from the bottom of my heart and may your path through life bring you what you're looking for. This is my last posting. Catcha signing off.

I'm not there either yet Catch and your not alone in understanding what I'm saying... sometimes I don't understand it either or have trouble or hang ups but the more we live and grow the more we learn about ourselves and the world around us. Everyone of us reside on a different level or different vibrational plane so there are no two alike and that's what makes us unique.

Why would you leave? There are so many here to grow with and learn with and discuss things with... why abandon a place where you can come and discuss all these things? If you want excitement and distraction ride a roller coaster but if you want to discuss philosophy amongst friends, this is a great place to do it. Hope to see you back but that's up to you. My post was not intended to run you off but to add food for thought... Hope you come back.

Peace!
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 03:06 pm
@Justin,
Im feeling realy guilty i have lost someone i could have communicated with ,i dont want people to agree with me or i will stagnate. Sorry man.. please dont leave..ill snog you if i have to..
 

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