qualia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 08:37 pm
@Fido,
From the tiresome excrescences-excrements of essentialism, - what a mouthful that is - I think Theaetetus is trying to raise our attention to the idea that intelligence is fraught with difficulties, not least of which is knowing what exactly it is. The grand differential impinges. It is inevitably nailed to the dull dialectic of heredity-environment; charged emotionally and politically. The cacophony of ideologues. There are thousands of 'intelligent' tests, a hundred theories, and what is revealing is what they all conceal, the obsession to measure, to categorise, to divide, conquer, label, box, round in, and herd off. The obese carceral power of knowledge-achievement - as Theaetetus has already alluded to in his reference to jobbing sloth - firmly places intelligence within the violent imperatives of the social regime, the sphere open to manipulation, terror, fear, and evidently, much banality.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:02 pm
@Fido,
Fido;162299 wrote:
It is not a real road, but a metaphorical road call survival, with the meaning of procreation... Like the old Joke: Once there were these two Chinese; and now look at how many there are...

Part of the reason there are so many stupid people is that the intelligent ones figure out how to make money rather than babies...They leave the fun part to others and wonder why they are unhappy... Well da... No one is happy, but the ones with the kids are too busy to care...


I enjoy this post Fido, but I must protest that I am pretty happy. Still, I have seen than many parents don't have the nesc. free time for unhappiness. That's a good line, my friend. A friend of mine just became a father, and I think it's safe to say that it was the best experience of his life. I was talking to a man transfigured, enlivened with purpose, pure purpose. I told my old man about it, and the same gleam came to his eye. I could tell that he too was changed forever by parenthood.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:25 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;162670 wrote:
I enjoy this post Fido, but I must protest that I am pretty happy. Still, I have seen than many parents don't have the nesc. free time for unhappiness. That's a good line, my friend. A friend of mine just became a father, and I think it's safe to say that it was the best experience of his life. I was talking to a man transfigured, enlivened with purpose, pure purpose. I told my old man about it, and the same gleam came to his eye. I could tell that he too was changed forever by parenthood.

New parents think they are going to make their children, have a big influence on their lives; but find their children born complete, personalities fixed, and no more given to change in that regard than any other person...The new father thinks about what a remarkable experience is birth; but I trust your old father sees things differently, that in wanting to be a great influence they found a great influence, and were changed by their children, usually for the better...
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:37 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus;162285 wrote:
Thus, young students are forced to find deversions to occupy their attention, and all the while, they are bombarded with 'ideal' images that are pushed my mega corporations to media consumers. And through this process of turning these various ideal images into their realities, people become little stupid drone that are easily manipulated to devote large portions of their lives acquiring their 'dream' lives.


You make an excellent point about the bombardment of images. John Berger wrote a good book on this, about the replacement of oil painting with photo-based modern ads. "Glamor is the happiness of being envied." He also showed newspapers in which articles about 3rd-world poverty were on the same page with diamond ads, for instance.

For me, the worthy core of religion is a pointing away from more "monkeyish" values to less "monkeyish" values. In my mind, "idolatry" is still a potent concept. And Marx was right, I think, about commodity fetishism. It's not a happy situation when some poor kid covets Hilfiger casual wear more than he/she covets an education. I think TH is passe now, but you get my drift. The notion that education is a burden, something one does for money...now that disturbs me. Rather than money as a means to education, education is just a means to money, a burden to be endured. Also we have the "time is money" attitude. Well, for me, money is time. And every piece of junk bought is time wasted working for others.

I suppose that teachers do the best they can, or at least some of them, but they do have a visceral expert ad industry to compete with. Ck-one will tell us to "just be," which distills Taoism into a nice unisexual scent. Somehow the breasts of Kate Moss are nicely combined with the Wisdom of the East. Nike tells us to Just Do It, shows us true examples of sporting excellence. Somehow I doubt those same excellent athletes wasted much time at the mall. I don't hate the rich man for being rich, but I can't admire a rich man for selling junk he doesn't believe in. If I could make a fortune selling something truly good, I would be proud of my success. It's trickier when one thinks of all those charge cards being swiped for overpriced fetish objects...
0 Replies
 
MMP2506
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 10:10 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus;162285 wrote:
Honestly, everyone is taking a piece of satire or parody even, way too far. Seriously, lighten up everyone. This piece was intentionally short-sighted and overly dramatic, but that was the point. The idea was to provide some fodder for discussion that was diametrically opposed to most people. Instead a bunch of ninnies got their panties in a bunch and began to defend specifics to gross generalities.

Seriously, other than Reconstructo, and possibly mister kitten, no one got it. Jebediah tried at least, but both ken and plato failed miserably.

Anyway, since everyone wants some sort of literal discussion, here is a little post that is a bit slanted towards the direction that I want to propose to be a fact:

The education system is generally set up in order to promote the ideas of the controlling powers of the society. Most teachers in the public education system are neutered in that they must teach to passing tests, rather than real learning. Thus, school is boring and more of something that a young student is forced to do, rather than something they would want to do even if they didn't have to. Thus, young students are forced to find deversions to occupy their attention, and all the while, they are bombarded with 'ideal' images that are pushed my mega corporations to media consumers. And through this process of turning these various ideal images into their realities, people become little stupid drone that are easily manipulated to devote large portions of their lives acquiring their 'dream' lives.

Anyway, here is a start to a more 'serious' discussion since no one got it the first time. I was a bit more obvious. I know there are exceptions so don't bother to tell me because I ALREADY KNOW. Remember, these are some generalities that a few select overachievers will not skew the general trend.

Grow up and quit whining about profanity. Sure, I am a moderator, but what is your point. I am not capable of swearing? I am not allowed? It was a stupid rule and it no longer is.


I understand your qualms with our education system, but do you believe that is really where it starts? Unless you subscribe to the idea of an intentional conspiracy by a superiorly intelligent upper class, I feel it is quite obvious that the problem is due to lack of a mutual understanding existing between the people that make the rules and the people that follow them. Given the level of incompetence I see even with many of our current politicians, I could never talk myself into believing they could, as a whole, be intentionally pushing some secret brainwashing agenda. Therefore the problem dealing with our education system is really just a manifestation of a much larger problem of communication, which after enough time to evolve will eventually correct itself as a greater awareness concerning the true nature of the problem is realized.

I think for those out there who still wish to grow from their educational experience, there are still more than enough opportunities out there, they are just hidden behind the shadows of the business schools and Natural science departments.
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 04:15 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus;161910 wrote:
We know everything, but we do not know unintended consequences of our actions.
Then we don't know everything, strange selfcontradiction.

Our world still turns, our life hasn't become utter Hell, most of us still kisses our children good night and hug them, even after counless of wars, even after famine, even after plague, colera and tufus.
..we are the humans, we will overcome and adapt, that is our simple fate. It may take some time, there will be alot of setbacks, but we will presist and persevere.

If we all were smart, if we all were geniouses and leaders, who would take the undesireable jobs, then no wheels would turn, no one to grease the wheels, no one to get their hands dirty. These are the everyday heroes who make our society survive, thanks to them!
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 11:17 pm
@HexHammer,
People aren't stupid they're just hypnotized.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 12:11 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;167556 wrote:
People aren't stupid they're just hypnotized.
..and ....................just how are they typnotized?
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 12:33 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;167574 wrote:
..and ....................just how are they typnotized?

Probably hypnotizability had some evolutionary benefit. It may have been a good survival instinct to be hypnotized back in our monkey days. A naturally arising organization around some leader in order to escape or fight off predators or in order to hunt and acquire food. But its an instinct we must grow out of because the environment has changed and the forms of social organization have changed.

We need to wake up from the nightmare of prehistory.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 12:42 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;167581 wrote:
Probably hypnotizability had some evolutionary benefit. It may have been a good survival instinct to be hypnotized back in our monkey days. A naturally arising organization around some leader in order to escape or fight off predators or in order to hunt and acquire food. But its an instinct we must grow out of because the environment has changed and the forms of social organization have changed.

We need to wake up from the nightmare of prehistory.
I'm afraid that I have to disagree, I don't understand anything of our reasoning. Who should have hypnotized us? Could you link some scientific article about this, or is it just from your imagination?

But if you think it's mass marketing manipulation, or group think then it would be better terms, not hypnotization.
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 12:57 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;167585 wrote:
I'm afraid that I have to disagree, I don't understand anything of our reasoning. Who should have hypnotized us? Could you link some scientific article about this, or is it just from your imagination?

But if you think it's mass marketing manipulation, or group think then it would be better terms, not hypnotization.

Sure group think is a sort of hypnotism. I think hypnotism is the broader term as, for example, one individual can hypnotize another with no one else around. Who is doing the hypnotizing? I think many of us are hypnotizing each other but of course there is also the type of TV, radio, music, art etc that does more to lower consciousness i.e. make it subconscious rather than raise consciousness. I don't have any scientific articles ready at hand but you may want to think about it without relying on the authority of scientists. Authority and hypnotism are closely linked. And many authorities are themselves hypnotized.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 02:09 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;167589 wrote:
Sure group think is a sort of hypnotism. I think hypnotism is the broader term as, for example, one individual can hypnotize another with no one else around. Who is doing the hypnotizing? I think many of us are hypnotizing each other but of course there is also the type of TV, radio, music, art etc that does more to lower consciousness i.e. make it subconscious rather than raise consciousness. I don't have any scientific articles ready at hand but you may want to think about it without relying on the authority of scientists. Authority and hypnotism are closely linked. And many authorities are themselves hypnotized.
Imo hypnoze is a wrong term, as it implyes the absense of clarity and conciousness, where it heavily relies on subconciousness.

However you are right in the sense that many act and behave excatly in that way.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 05:53 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;167574 wrote:
..and ....................just how are they typnotized?


You don't have to tell how anyone sick got sick to see they are sick... It is usually enough to see the condition to see something of the solution... If everyone having cholora is drinking out of the same well, take the handle off the pump...
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 09:03 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;167581 wrote:
Probably hypnotizability had some evolutionary benefit. It may have been a good survival instinct to be hypnotized back in our monkey days. A naturally arising organization around some leader in order to escape or fight off predators or in order to hunt and acquire food. But its an instinct we must grow out of because the environment has changed and the forms of social organization have changed.

We need to wake up from the nightmare of prehistory.


But just how are stupid people hypnotized? I think that was the question.
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 12:30 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;167694 wrote:
But just how are stupid people hypnotized? I think that was the question.

Here's what I wrote.
Deckard;167556 wrote:
People aren't stupid they're just hypnotized.
(It's intended as a correction to the title of the thread.)

As for how hypnotism works, How Stuff Works has an article on it.

HowStuffWorks "How Hypnosis Works"
55hikky
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 05:07 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
The point is that we do things as told; born, pre, ele, jr, high, college, work, yay! schools don't teach (not anymore) they make you memorize, and how much you memorize determines your BA, BS and ultimately Ph.D. is this the only path to life? some will say yes. That is the point, not where you work as a result of this "education". Kids these days, MOST evident and prominent in math classes, ask, "Why am I learning this?" and this is apodictic for "instructors" who void all information of value and the "point" of them learning the material. It is not to teach them a lesson on life, or use, or value, but merely that "they just have to know it, or you won't get into college, and get a good job"... the flaw lies in the United School District. The flaw lies in the instructors. The flaw lies in the Parents. The flaw lies in the Government. These 4 brew and facilitate blind, "drone" citizens. This is my input on the original thread.

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 04:12 PM ----------

TuringEquivalent;161915 wrote:
Let me summarize your point:

People are stupid, because people work for evil corporations.

Solution:
Perhaps people should work for non-profits.


The point is that we do things as told; born, pre, ele, jr, high, college, work, yay! schools don't teach (not anymore) they make you memorize, and how much you memorize determines your "illegibility" for a BA, BS and ultimately Ph.D. is this the only path to life? some will say yes. That is the point, not where you work as a result of this "education". Kids these days, MOST evident and prominent in math classes, ask, "Why am I learning this?" and this is apodictic for "instructors" who void all information of value and the "point" of them learning the material. It is not to teach them a lesson on life, or use, or value, but merely that "they just have to know it, or you won't get into college, and get a good job", not practicality and importance... the flaw lies in the United School District. The flaw lies in the instructors. The flaw lies in the Parents. The flaw lies in the Government. These 4 brew and facilitate blind, "drone" citizens. This is my input on the original thread.

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 04:22 PM ----------

kennethamy;161918 wrote:
Now, let me see if I understand you. A biologist who (say) discovered a cure for cancer would be stupid because he was educated (and got a Ph.D. in biology)? If that is not what you are saying, then what is it you are saying? If anything. (I surmise that education and you are not getting along, and that you are expressing your hostility to education in general. It sounds like a personal matter).


There is a distinct difference in individual who go to public, or private institutions as instruments to learn what they believe in and expand on knowledge in pursuit of their desires, and individuals who go through high school because it is required by law and also go through college because their parents kept saying "if you don't graduate college, you won't get a good job." it is important to not clump these two in the same categories, for this IS the major flaw in the (LA)USD where we assume all kids think alike. We eliminate art, severly limit humanites, history, social studies and strongly emphasize native language course and science based classes. What is worse is while the adults and government emphasize this, they also strongly criticize those who can not keep up with this and strongly praise those who can abide this course. There are wide myriad of individuals, and it is important that just because they can't pass math or physics they are stupid. We think differently, and the school system is not the absolute and not necessarily right, nor the only way of pursuing intelligence and knowledge.
Am I flawed in this opinion?

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 04:28 PM ----------

TuringEquivalent;161935 wrote:
You know i am right. You just don` t want to look bad.


"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

This is called Philosophy Forum, not Youtube.

Individual(s) who think they are right caused more deaths in human history than the people who don't. Are you christian by any chance? or are you an Alkida member. Forgive my extended over generalizations, and ad hominem, but please keep your nazi quote to yourself.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2010 12:11 pm
@55hikky,
Hi Theatetus,
I have a good verse on this very point, called 'Remote Control'. I'll stick it in the writing section, as soon as I find it.
Thank you - your observations are, indeed accurate IMO. Though just a little expletive in places.
Have a great day.

Mark...
Dr Seuss
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2010 12:21 pm
@mark noble,
We are by nature 'maladaptive' since we come out the womb. We call ourselves homo-sapien-sapien we call ourselves wise wise. Yet we are the ones that our own thoughts causes us distress. It just serves to show what we really are. He who thinks knows everything knows nothing. The mask of nothing is knowledge. We can call ourselves wise but it doesnt mean we are. We will never know everything and if we think we know a lot in reality we know nothing. We make something out of nothing and when you remove the something you are left with nothing.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2010 12:23 pm
@Deckard,
Deckard;167726 wrote:
Here's what I wrote.
(It's intended as a correction to the title of the thread.)

As for how hypnotism works, How Stuff Works has an article on it.

HowStuffWorks "How Hypnosis Works"
Very interesting article, but least in Denmark we consider hypnosis unscientific. Sure some are affected, but they are considerd weak and easily manipulated, hysterical vunerable to suggestion.

Through hypnosis you can plant false experiences in weak people, and therefore can't be considerd relyable.
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2010 12:45 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;174277 wrote:
Very interesting article, but least in Denmark we consider hypnosis unscientific. Sure some are affected, but they are considerd weak and easily manipulated, hysterical vunerable to suggestion.

Through hypnosis you can plant false experiences in weak people, and therefore can't be considerd relyable.

I suppose some of these weak people could be hypnotized into believing that they are stronger and smarter than everyone else...so long as they buy a particular product, vote for a particular political party, believe this, don't believe that, etc. etc.

Effective brainwashing always begins by reducing the target to a weakened and vulnerable state.
 

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