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Why did man create religion?

 
 
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2009 04:20 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead wrote:
Where does your moral will come from? Its not like we were really born with much more than instincts and general inclinations for this or that. By the time a person even understand that there is such a top level conscious function as introspection, one's moral will has been formed for the most part by his/her surroundings.
GoshisDead wrote:
All of which surroundings are parts of institutionalized moral building structures interlocking with each other to help a person form an identity and an ideology.


Moral building structures are not in place to help people have unique, individual identities and/or ideologies. They are there simply out of efficiency/uniformity... well a direct method of efficiency anyways. It is illogical to assume moral building is communal rather than egocentric. Perhaps spirituality needs to stipulate an enlightened self interest approach?

GoshisDead wrote:
The Majority of the moral will has been formed (assuming we are talking about noun will and not the verb will). Introspection inspects these things internally of course. Introspection does not change these things if one feels the need to change them it is often introduced from other outside stimulative forces.


Yes, the justice behind acting upon one's introspect is certainly important.

GoshisDead wrote:
How many original ideas does a person really have. .


Well, either zero or plenty.

GoshisDead wrote:
however there is no way once a person has introspected, chosen what is right for them, that s/he cannot telegraph this choice in most every action committed..


This seems so counterintuitive to my common sense that I'm afraid I don't know what you mean here. Sure you could act.

GoshisDead wrote:
In Grouping is a natural phenomenon that huamns need. If it weren't it wouldn't be "The Norm". In what way is a person that has joined a particular sect not spiritual? The desire to be part of a like thinking group and spirituality are not related. I desired to be a part of a Judo Club and the Toast Masters...


Grouping is efficiency, perhaps evolution adapts to the added virtue we get from reciprocity and humility.



GoshisDead wrote:
Also there the problem of assuming that people in an esablished religion have been duped, brainwashed, or at the very least never have (rationally introspected). ...

No, not brainwashed. Just latent introspect.

GoshisDead wrote:
It is pure naivete to assume that striving for a transcendental goal, whatever it may be is 1) not spiritual, 2) irrational and 3) without constant internal dialogue between the empirical world and the subjective transcendental world....


I completely agree! I'm all for spirituality.


GoshisDead wrote:
This i agree with very much with minor adendums.
Unique spiritual path: everyone has one, even in a highly organized religion.
Critical thought: People think critically all the time, it just happens that with the hyper technological state of the world, it is applied critical thought.
GoshisDead wrote:
Our very modern system of society is based on the influence of the many over the few. When i vote I am in effect attempting to impose my will over those with whom I disagree. There is no communal existence without the implication of leverage. Human social structure ends up being a pack mentality. Every group of friends has a hierarchy. Every person by simply having an opinion differing from another's is expressing "my opinion is bettere than yours, because it is my opinion" .


Well that sucks.

GoshisDead wrote:
In essence what I am trying to get at here is that uniformity and group membership is natural but almost an illusion, as mo matter what everyone is always on their own unique path.


Oh I agree with you there.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2009 06:10 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Quote:




Interesting things I think people are overlooking.
1) Law is Law and is always enforced by those in power. There are social laws, Cultural laws, Institutionalized Laws, Religious Law, a law for every facet of life and people are punished for breaking them. It happens in school lunch rooms when someone calls the wrong person a slut. It happens in the bank or library where people are shushed for talking too loudly. It happens when people are arrested for smoking pot. It also happens in religions. Using a theocracy as an example really doesn't fly, as that theocratic society functions the same as secular one as it pertains to law. Just like some people might disagree with a Muhammad naming law others might disagree with a pot smoking law.
2) Law as it is executed in all its forms is arbitrary and impartial. It is the contextualized interpretation thereof that is different and subject to ethical/moral considerations. The context in which we are discussing things is that of Western Religious Tolerance. Without the contextual backdrop of the right to believe what one wants there would be no real discussion here.
3) The right to religious freedom or non-religious freedom is a right to practice how one would, it's not the right not to be bothered by those who believe different than you.
4) Spirituality can only be defined through outside influence and experience, Introspection is great and essential but useless without information gleaned from the outside world.
5) In recent history there are trends afoot that "indoctrinate" people into thinking that equal rights = the right to ultimate individuality. Where in reality the do not equal each other and run contrary to human nature. A pejorative sentiment has been attached to what is being called "the herd mentality". On a purely individual level everyone is unique it's the great thing about consciousness. However to eschew grouping is to eschew humanity and it many functional benefits.

Quote:

Moral building structures are not in place to help people have unique, individual identities and/or ideologies. They are there simply out of efficiency/uniformity... well a direct method of efficiency anyways. It is illogical to assume moral building is communal rather than egocentric. Perhaps spirituality needs to stipulate an enlightened self interest approach?


Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2009 08:54 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead wrote:



They don't do this for the betterment of individuals. They have an effect of the identity sure. But in no way is this intended to help the individual be an individual.
0 Replies
 
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2009 09:38 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
Coercion is an equivalent of the word "force". Influence + spirituality = coercion doesn't make any sense. Let's break this down: Influence, the influence of other people on the way in which you live; spirituality, seeking meaning in life. Everyone is always influenced by others, unless you live on a deserted island. That people are influenced by their peers, and that people seek meaning in life, are two premises which do not imply the conclusion that a spiritual community (group of like minded spiritual seekers) coerces (forces) people to do anything.

Let's ask ourselves: what is the nature of the influence in a spiritual community. It might be coercion, and sometimes is coercion, but that's not something inherent in any given spiritual community.

Hmmm. the ******* of ****** suffers ******** and the ******* take ** by *****. Kinda reminded me of that saying Didymos.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Mar, 2009 01:18 am
@Elmud,
Quote:
They don't do this for the betterment of individuals. They have an effect of the identity sure. But in no way is this intended to help the individual be an individual.


An individual cannot help but be an individual, these systems are in place to keep the individual from being too individual. I know its a modern mantra, "be yourself" but when the self becomes too individual that self is institutionalized, beatified, worshiped, martyred, jailed, ostracized, ridiculed, shamed, or any combination of the former. The modern ideal is just that, an ideal, it has never seemed to be in human nature for the individual to be too individual and have it end well for that individual. They oft become the tragic hero, or the social pariah. These systems are in place to help the individual be part of an endless interconnected web of groups that form the core of humanity.
0 Replies
 
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2009 05:45 pm
@Holiday20310401,
The older I get the more I wish I did not know. Superior than before. Sometimes I wonder. One of the worst things about getting older is remembering when you were young. When your mind wasn't cluttered with so many things. Be nice to be young again. I think I was superior when I was young. Happier then, and less apt to think about things like, superiority.
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2009 06:35 pm
@Elmud,
There's something about frivolity which makes virtue bring joy rather than necessarily a desire for pleasure or an inevitable ignorance. But I suppose this is hard to come by.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2009 06:36 pm
@Holiday20310401,
I'm not sure if this man has been mentioned before, but Joseph Campbell, a well-known American mythologist delved pretty far into the question posed here. Before his death, he was working on a large-format, illustrated series entitled: The Historical Atlas of World Mythology. Unfortunately, he died before he could finish, but he wrote many other works dealing with this very subject. He divided humanity's mythological tendencies into four stages:


  • The Way of the Animal Powers -- the myths of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers which focus on shamanism and animal totems.
  • The Way of the Seeded Earth -- the myths of Neolithic, agrarian cultures which focus upon a mother goddess and associated fertility rites.
  • The Way of the Celestial Lights -- the myths of Bronze Age city-states with pantheons of gods ruling from the heavens, led by a masculine god-king.
  • The Way of Man -- religion and philosophy as it developed after the Axial Age(c. 6th century BC), in which the mythic imagery of previous eras was made consciously metaphorical, reinterpreted as referring to psycho-spiritual, not literal-historical, matters. This transition is evidenced in the East by Buddhism, Vedanta and philosophical Taoism; and in the West by the Mystery Cults, Platonism, Christianity and Gnosticism.

Joseph Campbell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm quite curious how our mysticism will evolve over the next thousand years. What directions will our modern religions take?
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2009 07:09 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
I'm not sure if this man has been mentioned before, but Joseph Campbell, a well-known American mythologist delved pretty far into the question posed here. Before his death, he was working on a large-format, illustrated series entitled: The Historical Atlas of World Mythology. Unfortunately, he died before he could finish, but he wrote many other works dealing with this very subject. He divided humanity's mythological tendencies into four stages:


  • The Way of the Animal Powers -- the myths of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers which focus on shamanism and animal totems.
  • The Way of the Seeded Earth -- the myths of Neolithic, agrarian cultures which focus upon a mother goddess and associated fertility rites.
  • The Way of the Celestial Lights -- the myths of Bronze Age city-states with pantheons of gods ruling from the heavens, led by a masculine god-king.
  • The Way of Man -- religion and philosophy as it developed after the Axial Age(c. 6th century BC), in which the mythic imagery of previous eras was made consciously metaphorical, reinterpreted as referring to psycho-spiritual, not literal-historical, matters. This transition is evidenced in the East by Buddhism, Vedanta and philosophical Taoism; and in the West by the Mystery Cults, Platonism, Christianity and Gnosticism.

Joseph Campbell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm quite curious how our mysticism will evolve over the next thousand years. What directions will our modern religions take?

Considering the population of our world today. The pollution of the Earth and its atmosphere. One might hope that by then, we will have taken a quantum leap, backward. I think religion will have become a relic of the past. Academia as well. Survival will be the name of the game.
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2009 07:11 pm
@Elmud,
You know, I used to like that thought, but then I realized the totalitarian implications it has.
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2009 08:32 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Well, there is always hope.
0 Replies
 
 

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