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Why did man create religion?

 
 
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2009 12:02 am
When people get older I suppose an understanding of the world grows. Sometimes I wonder if this understanding acts as a competitive drive, willing some to feel an inevitable need to be more superior than before, and more and more.

As we understand the world more, at least in my opinion, I do not feel more free than before. I do not feel control which procures this false sense of freedom, the best of man's abilities to attain such. Perhaps as responsibility grows, one's feeling of his control over himself, the ability to be superior over his past self over time, diminishes (feeling that is). And a way to compensate is to have superiority over external influences.

We should be awestruck of our own creation of such a conception as God, for that is exactly what created it I think, in the sense that there is a divine being, a separate entity from humanity.

You see a child, running blissfully at three feet waves along a shoreline. The child is laughing so melodiously to the soothing sound of the waves, sheer joy it appears to be. And the child says, "Again, again".

And you just want to cry, seeing such joy. And I think, this child does not need a God to experience such spiritual ease. But this evangelical attitude. What does it do? Nothing! Rather, it takes spirituality away.
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Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2009 05:05 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Evangelism is not inherent in religion. Some religions are clearly opposed to evangelism.

Religion is not needed for spirituality, however, it does have uses. Community is an important aspect of the spiritual life for most people; to have peers with whom we can relate gives us an outlet for thoughts. Ritual helps us better understand our spirituality: think of that great Catholic tradition of shaking hands with your neighbors during the service and saying "Peace be with you".
0 Replies
 
No0ne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2009 05:11 pm
@Holiday20310401,
The reation of the lable "religion" was most likly a result of logical based thought seperating from faith based thought.

Basicaly it came to a point where collective organizations that would claim things without logic to denote such claims about the orgin or nature of the orgin of humans would but labled under a seperate title.

Hence "Religion".

It seems as time progressed that many "religions" took a back seat to governing a nation, this was most likly due to the logical based thoughts of the other collective organizations. Yet there are still meany places where the role is vice versa. Mainly its all about which side is willing to take up more arms...
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2009 05:16 pm
@No0ne,
No, religion was not most likely created due to the supposed separation of logic and faith. The first "religions" were cults surrounding either a Sky God or Earth Mother deity. These cults had more than explanatory value: they also served as a method for maintaining balance with the natural world. If a primitive society gathers too much of some particular berry, they will suffer a shortage of that fruit during the next season.
No0ne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2009 05:25 pm
@Holiday20310401,
That word is a lable, which is given to people that accept a way of thought, mainly based apon faith that what they are told or know is correct, even without proof or denotion.

I was simply showing another side to "religions" mainly I was talking about the three major conflicting religions Islam, Christain, and Judism, since it seems that you both had coverd the nature of "cults" which are maily the same yet there physical actions and radical thoughts seperate them from the lable of "religions"
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2009 05:27 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Yes I know religion doesn't imply evangelism. But it implies a moral code, does it not? And this is useless without others consent.

I thought the objective was to find inner meaning or something as introspective along those lines, and not let others have to be a part of such. Why is there this attitude?
0 Replies
 
Dichanthelium
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2009 06:00 pm
@No0ne,
No0ne wrote:
That word is a lable, which is given to people that accept a way of thought, mainly based apon faith that what they are told or know is correct, even without proof or denotion.


Religion can be a matter of credulity for some, just as surely as science or any system of knowledge can be. *Some authority figure told me something, so I assume it must be true.* This approach is equally prevalent in religion, science, politics, economics. Talk to any typical college student. See how many you can find who even have an inkling of what is meant by healthy skepticism. How many of them know how to apply the analytical method of Socrates to their field of study.

On the other hand, religion, like any other system of knowledge, can be a matter of careful logical thinking. It is not defined in terms of how credulous the individual adherent may be, but in terms of the value system it presents and the depth and honesty of its investigation.

Man did not create religion itself. Religion, in the deepest sense, is not something man created. It is something man experiences. We experience internal questioning such as, "Who am I? Why am I here? How should I lead my life? What is good? What is evil? How can I be truly good? How can I be truly happy? How can I respect myself? What is my ultimate goal in life? What do I owe to my fellow human beings?"

When I take a hard look at myself and try to answer those questions, I am being religious.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2009 06:16 pm
@Dichanthelium,
No0ne wrote:
The reation of the lable "religion" was most likly a result of logical based thought seperating from faith based thought.

Basicaly it came to a point where collective organizations that would claim things without logic to denote such claims about the orgin or nature of the orgin of humans would but labled under a seperate title.

Hence "Religion".


Give me one shred of evidence.

Again, the first religions were Sky God and Earth Mother cults. These cults were the result of empirical knowledge: the realization that the earth can only provide so much and that overuse of the earth's resources has consequences. These religions came into being so that early man would have a way to control his use of natural resources. Had nothing to do with a separation of logic and faith.

No0ne wrote:
It seems as time progressed that many "religions" took a back seat to governing a nation, this was most likly due to the logical based thoughts of the other collective organizations. Yet there are still meany places where the role is vice versa. Mainly its all about which side is willing to take up more arms...


How is governance any more logical than spirituality?

Religion "took a back seat to" politics out of practicality: this had nothing to do with logic or faith. Agriculture allowed man to produce a surplus of food, which provided for larger populations. Iron tools further improved agricultural development, but also allowed man to create increasingly brutal weapons. As the nomads of central Asia began to make these tools, they began to invade places like Mesopotamia and India; those civilizations needed a way to defend themselves and politics was the solution.

No0ne wrote:
That word is a lable, which is given to people that accept a way of thought, mainly based apon faith that what they are told or know is correct, even without proof or denotion.


If that is your definition of religion, you have eliminated some of the world's major faith traditions as religions, and many sects of major faith traditions. The definition is too narrow.

No0ne wrote:
I was simply showing another side to "religions" mainly I was talking about the three major conflicting religions Islam, Christain, and Judism, since it seems that you both had coverd the nature of "cults" which are maily the same yet there physical actions and radical thoughts seperate them from the lable of "religions"


Neither of those three religions came about due to the supposed separation of logic and faith.

Holiday20310401 wrote:
Yes I know religion doesn't imply evangelism. But it implies a moral code, does it not? And this is useless without others consent.


Typically religion does give moral direction, yes. But others need not adopt some particular moral code in order for you to follow said code.

Holiday20310401 wrote:
I thought the objective was to find inner meaning or something as introspective along those lines, and not let others have to be a part of such. Why is there this attitude?


Something along those lines: but this does not mean that other people play no role.

In Buddhism there are people called Snow Leopards: these are people who attain enlightenment on their own, uninstructed. These are very rare individuals. Even the Dalai Lama needs the Sangha, the community of Buddhists. The spiritual path is not an easy one, and it helps to have some support. Spiritual communities provide this support, whether you are a monk in a monastery, or a lay person at your local church. Or even a dirty hippie at a drum circle. Smile
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Mar, 2009 11:47 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:

Something along those lines: but this does not mean that other people play no role.


Yes, ofcourse. But for example, when you provide the Sky God and Earth Mother cults. Why must these establishments be created? This is not spiritual, this is coercion. Evidently, we humans are naive, and taking advantage of others is not I guess, what you'd call religion then is it? Taking advantage of ourselves, perhaps emerging such logical imperitaves as self-realized seems more spiritual if we wish to call it that, if at all.

Didymos Thomas wrote:
In Buddhism there are people called Snow Leopards: these are people who attain enlightenment on their own, uninstructed. These are very rare individuals. Even the Dalai Lama needs the Sangha, the community of Buddhists. The spiritual path is not an easy one, and it helps to have some support. Spiritual communities provide this support, whether you are a monk in a monastery, or a lay person at your local church. Or even a dirty hippie at a drum circle. Smile


A community has it's spirituality and an individual has it's own spirituality, but in achieving enlightenment from the community when the community has it's own separate spirituality (which must be enlightened or more enlightened to enlighten the individual), what kind of intuitive basis are we deriving such true spirit from? But yes I see what you're saying.

Also Dichanthelium, I never thought about it that way before, thanks (sincerely). But would you not say that we both create religion and experience it? Perhaps creating religion is what we do, and that is not what we ought to be doing as it is not spiritual. By creating religion implies an evangelical frame of mind, whereas experiencing such true religion would be inner intuition, external influences of 'control' rather latent.
avatar6v7
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 02:32 am
@Holiday20310401,
People didn't create religion, they had cosmologies- they lived in a world shaped by supernatural beings and this was not a matter of faith to them, but of fact. The natural human instinct is, as was originally pointed out, to be mystical and spiritual- the concept of religous indoctrination is a lie, it would be more accurate to talk of secular indoctrination.
0 Replies
 
Dichanthelium
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 04:28 am
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Also Dichanthelium, I never thought about it that way before, thanks (sincerely). But would you not say that we both create religion and experience it? Perhaps creating religion is what we do, and that is not what we ought to be doing as it is not spiritual. By creating religion implies an evangelical frame of mind, whereas experiencing such true religion would be inner intuition, external influences of 'control' rather latent.


It really depends on how you define religion, doesn't it? Maybe you are talking about what I would call "institutional forms of religion" rather than what I would call "religion proper."

I think of religion, in the deep and proper sense, as something that is simply natural for people to do--to look deeply inward and imaginatively outward, and to develop value systems. It's that realm of activity that focuses on the ultimate meaning of life and our relationship to the universe. See L.W. Sleeth's recent series on God and the concept of Unity.

My perspective is that it is as natural for people to be religious as it is for people to be political. When we institutionalize the political impulse, we get things like democracy or communism. When we institutionalize the religious urge, we get things like Islam or Chritianity.

That doesn't mean the institutions are necessarily bad. They may be good or bad in varying degrees, depending on how well they serve the deeper needs.
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 05:17 pm
@Dichanthelium,
Ah so it's just us having conflicting meanings of the words. I see religion as establishing and institutionalizing, and I call that search for meaning to be spirituality.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 08:17 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Yes, ofcourse. But for example, when you provide the Sky God and Earth Mother cults. Why must these establishments be created? This is not spiritual, this is coercion. Evidently, we humans are naive, and taking advantage of others is not I guess, what you'd call religion then is it? Taking advantage of ourselves, perhaps emerging such logical imperitaves as self-realized seems more spiritual if we wish to call it that, if at all.


What makes it coercion? What is inherently coercive about such a cult? That something maybe be used to coerce others is not argument that something can only be coercion. Coercion is force, but what about influence? Influence is certainly inherent in any religious setting.

These cults were, and for some still are, spiritual because they help human beings understand their place in this universe and their relation to everything else.

Holiday20310401 wrote:
A community has it's spirituality and an individual has it's own spirituality, but in achieving enlightenment from the community when the community has it's own separate spirituality (which must be enlightened or more enlightened to enlighten the individual), what kind of intuitive basis are we deriving such true spirit from? But yes I see what you're saying.


Communities of spiritual practitioners have some shared understanding of spirituality, while the individual practitioner has his own spiritual path. Enlightenment, I do not think, is something achieved from the community. Rather, the community helps provide man a place where people with similar spiritual interests can come together and help one another on the path toward enlightenment.
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 11:03 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Influence (in your sense) + spirituality = coercion

Otherwise I completely agree with the bottom info.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 11:28 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Coercion is an equivalent of the word "force". Influence + spirituality = coercion doesn't make any sense. Let's break this down: Influence, the influence of other people on the way in which you live; spirituality, seeking meaning in life. Everyone is always influenced by others, unless you live on a deserted island. That people are influenced by their peers, and that people seek meaning in life, are two premises which do not imply the conclusion that a spiritual community (group of like minded spiritual seekers) coerces (forces) people to do anything.

Let's ask ourselves: what is the nature of the influence in a spiritual community. It might be coercion, and sometimes is coercion, but that's not something inherent in any given spiritual community.
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 11:33 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
If spirituality is as you say it is then if someone else's 'spirituality' 'influences' anothers then that person's spirituality is no longer introspective.

While I agree a community helps; humility, reciprocity... there can be no competition and as such, cooperation in spirituality as it would be irrelevant.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 01:57 am
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
If spirituality is as you say it is then if someone else's 'spirituality' 'influences' anothers then that person's spirituality is no longer introspective.


Really, tell me one thing that you think or do that does not influence other people. Tell me that other organizations and institutions do not influence you, many of which imposed by law.

Introspection is an action denoting inspection of oneself, in no way does introspection imply that by preforming it that it will have no effect on others. Anything that has profound effect on you will automatically have influence on others within your sphere of influence. You decide to believe in the flying spaghetti monster it will have ramification on others who will have reactions of their own that are likewise primarily introspective.

Just the title of the thread "Why did man create religion" stigmatizes religion as many believe it to be and is a not so subtle way of evangelizing anti-religion. This anti-religious proselyting had to come from somewhere,likely not pure, introspection. Maybe it was influenced by an organization, or an institution, or a socio-religious trend like that of the modern education system, or the news media, or Dora the Explorer who knows.

Who is to say that religion was created by man? Isn't it possible that it was divinly instituted? who is to say "God/s" doesn't want an institutionalized religion run with Swiss watch accuracy and German auto engineering? Who is to say that the tendency to be religious wasn't placed in us to drive us towards it?
Dichanthelium
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 05:27 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
I see religion as establishing and institutionalizing, and I call that search for meaning to be spirituality.


I'm inclined to try this distinction, though it certainly is hard to pin this stuff down:

Religious people typically do establish things such as institutions, and they may create and conserve writings and traditions. But these things are particular expressions of religion, not religion itself. The question is, what do all these particular expressions have in common that leads us to say that they are all religions?

As for spirituality, there's another term rarely defined. I'm not sure it is sufficiently defined as "search for meaning." If we look at the derivation, it would seem that spirituality must have something to do with spirits.
0 Replies
 
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 09:54 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead wrote:
Really, tell me one thing that you think or do that does not influence other people. Tell me that other organizations and institutions do not influence you, many of which imposed by law.


Yes I understand this, just like there can be no purely closed system, but while they influence your physical will, why should they directly influence the majority of your moral will? Introspection should question it's own conservations and the external established ones without the hindrance or bias of normative influences. Communal I suppose is not the right word.

GoshisDead wrote:
Introspection is an action denoting inspection of oneself, in no way does introspection imply that by preforming it that it will have no effect on others. Anything that has profound effect on you will automatically have influence on others within your sphere of influence.


To what extent should it influence others is perhaps what separates what I mean by religion vs. spirituality. A man's spirit should not be bargained for. If all of one's decisions revolve around the norm, because one desires to be part of the norm, I have to question what kind of spirituality this is.

GoshisDead wrote:
Just the title of the thread "Why did man create religion" stigmatizes religion as many believe it to be and is a not so subtle way of evangelizing anti-religion.


I don't want to evangelize anti-religion. I just question the motive of searching for such transcendental realities. How many people do you suppose are christian, jewish, islam, hindu, atheist, or agnostic just because their surrounding influences are? This is not spiritual, well... not likely anyways. Has any introspect actually been done?

Secularism has the same problem as theism. To me, everybody would if using introspect, govern themselves on a rather unique spiritual path. There would hardly be a norm, right? Yet you could still have a community, a community needs to get along with spiritual diversity, otherwise why degrade the word to such a group of people. The rise in secularism is probably due to the fact leisure time used for introspective matters, even thinking, critical thought in general, is in decline in western society. So we get this rising atheist/agnostic trend. Atheists are just mad at everybody, yet the apathy, and conformity is inherently the same as in an evangelically influence society. (This is why I loath the adds for atheism, because it's not about picking a side. There are no sides, no winner or loser. There is just the result of one's spirit, which should have no leverage on others or done by others, in the non-communal sense. They (the intrinsic effect of advertisement) make people adverse to spirituality.

So the uniformity, to me, speaks as religious mindsets, not spiritual ones. I don't know how to explain the difference I see between the two better than that.


GoshisDead wrote:
Who is to say that religion was created by man? Isn't it possible that it was divinly instituted? who is to say "God/s" doesn't want an institutionalized religion run with Swiss watch accuracy and German auto engineering? Who is to say that the tendency to be religious wasn't placed in us to drive us towards it?


I could buy it as an adaptation to move us to a greater "efficiency" as a species, religion that is. Spirituality, no.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Mar, 2009 01:56 am
@Holiday20310401,
Quote:
Yes I understand this, just like there can be no purely closed system, but while they influence your physical will, why should they directly influence the majority of your moral will? Introspection should question it's own conservations and the external established ones without the hindrance or bias of normative influences. Communal I suppose is not the right word.


Where does your moral will come from? Its not like we were really born with much more than instincts and general inclinations for this or that. By the time a person even understand that there is such a top level conscious function as introspection, one's moral will has been formed for the most part by his/her surroundings. All of which surroundings are parts of institutionalized moral building structures interlocking with each other to help a person form an identity and an ideology. The Majority of the moral will has been formed (assuming we are talking about noun will and not the verb will). Introspection inspects these things internally of course. Introspection does not change these things if one feels the need to change them it is often introduced from other outside stimulative forces. How many original ideas does a person really have. Everything a person does or thinks is influenced from some outside experience or the memory thereof. In no way am I reducing this to a Skinnerian black box behaviorist thing. Introspection is certainly important in the forming of one's own 'Mature Being', however there is no way once a person has introspected, chosen what is right for them, that s/he cannot telegraph this choice in most every action committed.

Quote:
To what extent should it influence others is perhaps what separates what I mean by religion vs. spirituality. A man's spirit should not be bargained for. If all of one's decisions revolve around the norm, because one desires to be part of the norm, I have to question what kind of spirituality this is.


Why is there a seeming argument against human nature from the stance of a naturalist? In Grouping is a natural phenomenon that huamns need. If it weren't it wouldn't be "The Norm". In what way is a person that has joined a particular sect not spiritual? The desire to be part of a like thinking group and spirituality are not related. I desired to be a part of a Judo Club and the Toast Masters.

Quote:
I don't want to evangelize anti-religion. I just question the motive of searching for such transcendental realities. How many people do you suppose are christian, jewish, islam, hindu, atheist, or agnostic just because their surrounding influences are? This is not spiritual, well... not likely anyways. Has any introspect actually been done?


Also there the problem of assuming that people in an esablished religion have been duped, brainwashed, or at the very least never have (rationally introspected). Untrue. People who have joined a group and strive to live by its rules and guidlines normally find it difficult to do so, it is only by will and constant introspection that they do. Faith to live a creed isn't ever blind, it is a road of self doubt, societal doubt, religious doubt etc... Every person raised X-religion or X-sect has had the period in life where they have doubted, rebelled, fallen away, got smart and quit, however you would like to phrase it. It is pure naivete to assume that striving for a transcendental goal, whatever it may be is 1) not spiritual, 2) irrational and 3) without constant internal dialogue between the empirical world and the subjective transcendental world.

Quote:
Secularism has the same problem as theism. To me, everybody would if using introspect, govern themselves on a rather unique spiritual path. There would hardly be a norm, right? Yet you could still have a community, a community needs to get along with spiritual diversity, otherwise why degrade the word to such a group of people. The rise in secularism is probably due to the fact leisure time used for introspective matters, even thinking, critical thought in general, is in decline in western society. So we get this rising atheist/agnostic trend. Atheists are just mad at everybody, yet the apathy, and conformity is inherently the same as in an evangelically influence society.



This i agree with very much with minor adendums.
Unique spiritual path: everyone has one, even in a highly organized religion.
Critical thought: People think critically all the time, it just happens that with the hyper technological state of the world, it is applied critical thought.


Quote:
(This is why I loath the adds for atheism, because it's not about picking a side. There are no sides, no winner or loser. There is just the result of one's spirit, which should have no leverage on others or done by others, in the non-communal sense. They (the intrinsic effect of advertisement) make people adverse to spirituality.
So the uniformity, to me, speaks as religious mindsets, not spiritual ones. I don't know how to explain the difference I see between the two better than that.


Our very modern system of society is based on the influence of the many over the few. When i vote I am in effect attempting to impose my will over those with whom I disagree. There is no communal existence without the implication of leverage. Human social structure ends up being a pack mentality. Every group of friends has a hierarchy. Every person by simply having an opinion differing from another's is expressing "my opinion is bettere than yours, because it is my opinion" In essence what I am trying to get at here is that uniformity and group membership is natural but almost an illusion, as mo matter what everyone is always on their own unique path.
 

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