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War. How much is enough?

 
 
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2008 10:29 pm
@Aedes,
http://www.gimmiethescoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/germany1.bmp

Why we won WWII. Seriously, though I'm sure paper thought the scissors were too dull to be a threat.Laughing
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 07:43 am
@Holiday20310401,
Hehehe, very nice.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 09:53 am
@Aedes,
My cat died this morning of pneumonia after getting run over by a car, which leaves me a 130 dallars short for the rest omy life, but at least I have one.
You know, I like conflict. I revel in death and in the machinery of death; but modern warfare is always so asymetrical, to use a garbage word -for a garbage idea. The Romans invented the modern army, but the Mongols invented total war: Annihilation. They were beat from the moment they showed mercy, because mercy is taken always for granted, and more is asked. They were so numerically smaller in number that they could not resist all they had given life to. No; fighting is good, and fighting produces a superior being. The way all of our ancients fought, man to man; honor against honor, and fate against fate was the improvement of mankind. If a man did not use his head as he should then it became the trophy of a better man. But war kills good and bad alike. War demands the most from the least. War demands no great courage from the winner, but it promotes the blindly obedient. At least the Mongols sorted the craftsmen from the peasants. Now, there is only one dishonor, and that is losing. So we attack with overwhelming force, and control with over whelming technology, and kill them all if we can so Allah may sort them wheat from shaff. It is too bad we do not see the value in self control, because as we act so shall we be judged, and God forbid that the people of the world should over run us, and judge us. Best; fido
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 09:59 am
@Fido,
I'm going to take the above with a good bit of irony.

Sorry about your cat.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 10:18 am
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
I'm going to take the above with a good bit of irony.

Sorry about your cat.

Me too. I was his person. thedumass.
VideCorSpoon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 01:35 pm
@Fido,
that
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 04:01 pm
@VideCorSpoon,
VideCorSpoon wrote:
that

The Romans tricked them out of their children first, and killed the rest; and it took them some time to build up to it. The great advance was their army which round robined everyone, while everyone else stood and fought till they died in single combat. They did not realize they were fighting a machine with interchangeable parts, and they did not realize how cruel they could be; but except for sucking the life out of them, dividing and ruling them, that Roman government was not much of a burden.

The Mongols were like Islam that destroyed so much in rolling over it. Some times whole towns and cities laid waste. And they let some run ahead to the next town to help spred the terror. They were the first blitzkrieg. They used modern tricks, even a bullet proof vest of sorts, a silk shirt, and gun powder, as soon as they got it. And human wave attacks with prisoners driven to the walls by mongols to take the brunt of the attack. And that bow, double recurve that could shoot through armor. Europe was lucky they never threw their weight against us and found our weakness. Our strength has been what we have picked up from others and improved on, like gunpowder and steel. We have only learned latly to spred terror from the skies; but we call it shock and awe. It is just more terror.
VideCorSpoon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 04:15 pm
@Fido,
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 04:25 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
The Mongols were like Islam that destroyed so much in rolling over it.
The Muslims spread quickly, but they were not very destructive in the process. But the Mongol destruction of Baghdad (and annihilation of virtually every person in the city) remains one of the greatest shames in Islam to this day.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 09:08 pm
@VideCorSpoon,
VideCorSpoon wrote:

The Muslims burned the library at Alexandria, and it was beyond priceless. At least that is the story as I remember it. But; the Cathagenians where not exactly nice people. They sold out Hannibal, who was their best man. They would not do what was necessary to make their society strong enough to resist the Romans, which would have required the rich sharing privilages and wealth with the average citizen. And no less than we do in our own way, they sacrificed many of their own children on the alters of their gods for nothing, trying to keep hold of the past. They made a lot of mistakes, but none worse than giving Rome cause to hate and fear them.

You know, I have read a lot of history, and I actually own a sizable library. I have got every one of Will and Ariel Durrants story of civilization, that I want, and I have read most of them. Either the Protestant Reformation, or Ceasar and Christ are good reads, and he often covers the same ground in different volumes, and almost always looks at Jewish and Muslim cultures beside European of the same age. The guy is really a good storyteller, But I may have some facts wrong. Feel free to correct me from the book.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 09:23 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
The Muslims burned the library at Alexandria
Well, the Romans had burned down the library and most of its contents three times before Mohammed had ever been born, starting from Caesar himself. I'm not sure how much was left by the time the Muslims got there.

Also worth keeping in mind is that the Muslims took lands that had been long left to rot by the Romans and actually made some very prosperous cities and cultures. Baghdad, Damscus, Cairo, Cordoba, Timbuktu, Gao, etc.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jul, 2008 09:34 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
The Muslims spread quickly, but they were not very destructive in the process. But the Mongol destruction of Baghdad (and annihilation of virtually every person in the city) remains one of the greatest shames in Islam to this day.

One of the great modern historians grew up in that time and wrote of all civilizations that came and went, brought in on a wave of barbarians in conquest, slowly corrupted with wealth and divided from their original unity to be swept aside by new barbarian having no respect for the soft and their mercenaries.
What is his name. If I remember right, as part of a delegation from Demascus, he interviewed Tamerlane, the iron limper himself. And he was another great killer. He left a pyamid of heads outside of Delhi numbering some 80000. I guess even then they had lots of Indians. Now I have to find that name.
0 Replies
 
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Aug, 2008 10:06 pm
@Aedes,
The only rules that are followed in declaring war or in conducting war ought, in my opinion, be (and almost always are) strictly pragmatic. Anything short of total war is negotiation, which has its place, but is not war. If victory and a benificial settlement after the conflict are not the only objectives, blood and treasure are being wasted. Following certain conventions, treaty obligations, etc. is neccessary only in so far as this preserves a nations credibility abraod or the lives of its captured soldiers, or the property of its civilians, etc. Altruism in war is suicide.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Aug, 2008 06:22 am
@BrightNoon,
War is a form of relationship just like every form of relationship where the form is seen as more essential than the relationship of the people within. It is crazy to think the war does not continue even while the guns are silenced, or that the enemy are all in our gun sights. We know, that if it were possible to kill all our enemies, that there would be more tomorrow and ever after until only two people on the planet remained. So, the victory of war is never a victory. The goal of war is not brother killing brother for the benefit of some third party that will not get dirty hands for any reason. The goal of war is the goal of all violence, which, seen in its most simple aspect is only a form of communication. Communication is truth, and even if that truth, at this moment is: I want to kill you; it is no less than something we want all to get beyond. It is not failures of communication between countries that lead to war. It is always failures of the forms within countries (which are themselves forms) that deny justice, and ultimately lead to war.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Aug, 2008 09:10 pm
@Fido,
What would be a just form for a nation, which would prevent war?

When I say war is pragmatic, I don't mean motivated only by wealth, territory, etc. alone. I mean that war is waged for whatever reason, for the purpose of victory, however that may be defined at the time, without regard for law or ethics, unless such regard is pragmatically useful. This is true of all human behavior. No one obeys a law because it is the law, though they may obey the law because they want to obey the law, if you see the difference in what I'm saying.

Agreed, there is no ultimate victory, as there is no ultimate peace. If there ever were, I think I would like to be jettisoned from the planet. A world without competition is doomed to stagnation and far worse, boredom.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 02:02 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon wrote:
What would be a just form for a nation, which would prevent war?

When I say war is pragmatic, I don't mean motivated only by wealth, territory, etc. alone. I mean that war is waged for whatever reason, for the purpose of victory, however that may be defined at the time, without regard for law or ethics, unless such regard is pragmatically useful. This is true of all human behavior. No one obeys a law because it is the law, though they may obey the law because they want to obey the law, if you see the difference in what I'm saying.

Agreed, there is no ultimate victory, as there is no ultimate peace. If there ever were, I think I would like to be jettisoned from the planet. A world without competition is doomed to stagnation and far worse, boredom.

If bush was accidentally right about anything it would be that democracies do not attack their neighbors. I guess that mean we are a democracy because we did not attck our nearbys/neighbors; but attacked those half ways around the world. Now, joking aside, democracy is most likely to result in justice, and so peace. It is defensive, and it is stingy, first of power, and then of price. People need only pay for what they all together recieve. If forty people need a side walk; they should pay, and not those who will never walk there. And it might tend to make the country less developed, but even the cities would have to count the cost. It is a crime to give people too much power, because money and more power will follow it. In fact, socieities can do no more than individuals morally; and can only do as the many multiplied. It does not have more authority than people have, and can give. If I do not have the right to kill, no number of people exactly like myself can give to goverment the right to kill. An organized society under any form of government is not necessarily better, or happier than primitive peoples. If primitives fight it is to make their people stronger and smarter, to weed out the disabled, and those least able to keep up. Now, societies protect those who cannot, and uses that to excuse making all work harder, and endure more. In addition, when injustice becomes too much to endure, and the frustration of one society are turned on another, and then it is not the weak, the old, or the infirm that die, or the diseased; but the best and brightest in droves. I am not saying we should achieve justice by killing our maimed. I am saying people should support their own families, and be responsible for their own, and if their branch is unhealthy they will die out from stress and over work if nothing else.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Aug, 2008 04:17 pm
@Fido,
Other than in saying that democracies tend to be more peaceful, I really don't see how what you wrote is a response or rebuttal to my lasy post, which you quoted. Also, I can't see what your even trying to say, seems incoherent to me. As such, I will respond to the first issue only.

Democracies are not inherently peaceful. Considering history, they have been some of the more aggressive powers, Athens, Genoa, The United States, France, Britain, etc. Remember it is not fair to compare the number of wars begun by democracies with the number begun by autocracies or other forms of government, as only very recently has the former surpassed the latter. Democracy itself does not ensure stability; it is more a matter of prosperity. Again, turning to history, the greatest popular revolts and agitations, which often lead to war as a distraction, were caused not by lack of freedom, but lack of food, high taxes, etc. The french revolution is the perfect example. It is still bread and circuses my friend.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Sep, 2008 10:06 am
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon wrote:
Other than in saying that democracies tend to be more peaceful, I really don't see how what you wrote is a response or rebuttal to my lasy post, which you quoted. Also, I can't see what your even trying to say, seems incoherent to me. As such, I will respond to the first issue only.

Democracies are not inherently peaceful. Considering history, they have been some of the more aggressive powers, Athens, Genoa, The United States, France, Britain, etc. Remember it is not fair to compare the number of wars begun by democracies with the number begun by autocracies or other forms of government, as only very recently has the former surpassed the latter. Democracy itself does not ensure stability; it is more a matter of prosperity. Again, turning to history, the greatest popular revolts and agitations, which often lead to war as a distraction, were caused not by lack of freedom, but lack of food, high taxes, etc. The french revolution is the perfect example. It is still bread and circuses my friend.

You were asking a question, so I guess I should have erased all not in your first line. So, Is there a just form of nation. Simply, it is those whe are related consanguineously, and who know each other, and their various personalities, and share their concerns, their courage, their determination; and even their cruelty if necessary in defense of friends and family. Are you sure you are not a dull afternoon? I know I dance around the fire a lot. I don't want to get burned saying what the truth is. But I guess I get close enough to smell like smoke and hot dogs. And I trust I am speaking English to the masses.

And btw. Bread and circus only works so long as there is bread enough to go around. Everyone I know is riding on empty. If people ever stop trying long enough to look around and see who has all their loot there won't be much to pick off their bones. Bankruptcy and failed expectations for a better life make revolutions. So how are you doing? It is nice in revolution to have a philosophy to guide it, perhaps a notion of the noble savage degraded from his state of nature to become your king or neighbor. Or an economic ideal. But these ideas are really counter revolutionary. And every revolutionist finds a point where he wants the revolution to end, and that is where many have died. But it is so much of nonsense. People do not have to revolt, they have to do something revolting, and that is to engage with their fellow humans, talk it out, cross the threashold with them as man and wife, so to speak, and this is a terror.

Our forms which should help us to engage very often serve to protect us from engagement, from too much of relationship, give and take, and so the form tells every man upon which square he should stand, and it takes great courage to throw away the board and the squares and have each make their own way. Yet, that is how forms should be built, from the relationship up, and if people have the relationship the form follows, at best, minimally.
nameless
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Sep, 2008 04:28 pm
@VideCorSpoon,
VideCorSpoon;19334 wrote:
War. How much is enough?

In political philosophy, there are two important theories...

...which distract us from the possibly more significant question of "War; who is profiting, and how?" And also, perhaps, "What do 'they' want us to 'think/feel/believe', and why?"
I understand that is beyond the ability of many 'eloi'... but if capable, seems a fruitful avenue of exploration.
Perhaps it will be our own face that we will be forced to acknowledge, in the mirror?
And as long as there is (perceived) profit for anyone to be gained by war, the OP question is already answered; never!
Not in the context of humans on earth, anyway..
VideCorSpoon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Sep, 2008 05:33 pm
@nameless,
nameless,

I think you have a good point. But I think your comment would fall more in line with Jus ad Bellum (justice for war) because your thoughts underline the reasons for going to war. But I do agree with you to a point. Somebody is always profiting in some way by some means from any type of warfare.

I don't know about the way we should perceive war though. That seems kinda relative. Propaganda is deeply rooted in everything from war to breakfast cereal commercials.

But I don't think your type of reasoning is beyond the "common" person (nice word "eloi" by the way). I think in one way or another, everyone is cynical about the reasons for war. Whether they be for or against.

Does war in itself require a sense of introspection? Sure. Somebody had to start it. And half the time it's probably ourselves. Even people that do not actively seek out war have war put on them. That seems the dangers of appeasement.

But trying to put your last response in context, you would say that there is "never" any limits in war?
 

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