God is not a solution, but a problem

Just a few comments on the Trinity thing... I have to admit it can be a confusing topic, but I think it gets most that way when we try to hard too define it. Try to define the differences/similarities/oneness/seperateness of your own will, mind, opinions, body, words, actions, emotions, instincts, etc, etc, and I think you will find the task rather daunting. (If you've never tried this, I personally think it's a worthwhile experience.) They all make up "you". But defining it all would be rather difficult- especially, especially, to any being that does not have all the same features.

I do not expect an almighty God to be less complex than I am, so the fact that it can't be reduced to words or clearly definable (to me) concepts doesn't really bother me as long as I can understand enough to relate to Him.

Thanks for this addition, it's much appreciated, and I reciprocate the sentiment.

When I speak of faith from an intellectual point of view, I'm referring specifically to abstract ideas that are founded in inherited belief systems, whose truth or error is beyond what experience and observation can demonstrate. I don't impune people for these beliefs, and I'm sure I hold some myself. But that's how I specifically use the word.

Reason and empirical observation have many limits, and beliefs held in faith often serve to fill in these holes for people. This is why religion tends not to opine about pulmonary physiology, but it will opine about life after death, and origins, and morals, etc -- all things that lie beyond reason. It so happens that I am satisfied not to know certain things. I really don't care about some of these ultimate questions like absolute foundations of morals, because I think that neither LIFE nor PHILOSOPHY needs to be founded in the absolute. So I don't fill in these gaps with religion, even though I had a somewhat religious upbringing and religion is very important to many of my relatives.

As for the trinity question, let me first thank you for the clarification -- I stand corrected about the scriptural source. But let's not lose the overall point I was making, which is that religions don't end the moment the scripture is done. They are works in progress and they change greatly over time. And as I mentioned even the act of translation distances us from what the scriptures originally said. Christianity is an exceptionally complex religion because it exists in so many places -- it's probably exceeded only by Buddhism in the sheer diversity of its practices. MOST of these traditions, prayers, and even theological ideas, are NOT doctrinal, but rather are at best derivatives of scriptural writing.

One last comment -- NeitherExtreme has written that he does not expect an almighty god to be less complex than he is. Complexity poses a huge conundrum, though, i.e. how do you account for divisibility into parts. This is why the Trinity is a bit of a leap of logic -- i.e. the individual components cannot be less than the whole. But I'm sure this conversation has happened a million times in the last 2000 years, I'll leave it to others.

Aedes
In principal I don't disagree with anything you've said here.

But (here comes the but:)) for example when you made ref. To Kierkegaard and quoted him did I spout off with that guy is this that and the other as if it where stupid to quote him, or that's religious? If you can quote from documents then so can I.. No matter what the document is or how many people believe what is written in that document or not. It doesn't matter what groups of people or organizations do or say about what ever document. It's what the person posts. If some one quotes a document then the face value of what is quoted is what is on the table.

If it were practical I would rather have this section of the site titled philosophy of belief. Or something of that nature. The word "religion" is like a produce on the market. for example if I say shampoo what brand comes to your mind first. That first thought is what corporations compete for. If I say religion what organized religion comes to mind first, but not necessarily belief. And it is usually what others believe and not one's own belief. But if I say belief, is it possible that what come to mind is what you yourself believe. Or at lest contemplating.

It is our own preconceive notions that can make us blind.

I'm ok with a Philosophy of Religion section, knowing the conceptual vagaries of such a category. In truth theology happens a lot here. Theology differs from philosophy in that it assumes certain religious truths, and the discussion happens solely within those boundaries. That is one aspect of the philosophy of religion. Philosophy of belief pertains to cultural and historical aspects of religious traditions, as well as religious epistemology (i.e. how do we know anything, and how do we know things within religion). Finally, ethics is something else that has not only reference to religion but also reference to secular ideas with a religious foundation.

So I think it's important that we define our terms when we use words like belief, truth, faith, etc. And we also need to make allowances for alternative points of view, especially in something like religion where there are emotional aspects, and there is a huge element of self-identity (even in my own weird case).

Aedes
I appreciate your conversation on this my friend. I ain't no Mr Philosopher, but I'm working on it and your advice is well received.

There are many important aspects in religion, and there are many destructive aspects as well. There are many people who are still alive because of religion, and there are many who are dead because of religion. Pros and cons, positives and negatives; to decide if god is a solution or a problem, we must balance the checkbook so to speak. I have my views on religion and their integrity when it comes to equity, but I wish to see the views of balance from others perspectives. I feel it necessary to properly find a sense of balance that we could all, regardless of our religious preference, find a solution for the division we face every day. Aedes, I'm sure you will have several suggestions, but we think along the same lines, and I really want to see what the more religiously aggressive types have to say, I'm sure we could better see their aspects, and possibly see solutions not previously considered by them.

I agree, Charles. I welcome such viewpoints. The common denominator here need NOT be what we actually believe, but rather should be our respect for one another as independent thinkers. Listening to one another need not be a threat to our belief systems, but can certainly refine them.

I think
what can be perceived as aggressive ( at lest in my case) is I can get caught up in trying to convince, rather than focusing on expressing as accurately as possible one's own view in the context of the conversation. And leave the rest to the reader.

In other words, wat'sa mata u, don't you know what im thinkn.

It's been about 30 years for me to have the opportunity to do this. Otherwise is been about eats, keeping warm and dry. And now with only a few brain cells left, that can fire consecutively. The rustiness can show.

I don't think the Trinity is a creation of God, it is a way of viewing God. Possibly he did not explain the trinity explicitly because there is no explicite explaination that we can understand. The Trinity defies logic (if you hold the Nicean and Augustine interpretation), logic is man's way of understanding the world, It seems that God would not be able to explain in detail what the Trinity is because we cannot handle it.

Personally, I believe the same holds true for the creation. The Jews could not understand the creation. If God talked about billions of galaxy stemming from an event billions of years ago, they would have never followed him.

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Additionally, to add to the rest of the post, the Bible is not God's only book, we also have to look to nature and within ourselves.

Why would the Bible, a book written and edited by man just as every other book, be "God's book" and some other books are not "God's book"?