God is not a solution, but a problem

I think, at best, he shows why some traditional, and all fundamentalist understandings of God and spirituality found in Christianity are problems.

He has not even begun to demostrate why God necessarily is a problem.

Just as we are creators, we are created. Just as god is a creator, god is created. God is a solution and a problem. God is a finite explanation for an infinite universe to finite minds. The problem he poses is that he is not an infinite solution for infinite-dimensionalism.

In order for there to be one ultra powerful god responsible for everything, he would have no origin thus creating a gap in everything. To the simple minded masses, such a concept is intangible. We the people of an enlightened mindset are able to crawl out of the cave and see reality.

Of the 4200 different religions, and all their associated gods, mankind is responsible for the creation of most of them. There are a few religions passed down by divine inspiration, but even these religions hold the shadow cast by human imagination. God was necessary for many reasons. Our true creators saw that our curiosity was infinite based on our origin from infinity; however our ability to process information and our comprehension was finite, so to appease the appetite of curiosity and meeting a happy medium with comprehension, they created god.

Now with a god, we had something to invest faith into. Faith is also a functioning tool for mankind. There have been millions of reports of miracles, physical feats, and unexplainable events; here is the explanation. These feats were possible because of faith. Faith creates a bridge between our physical conscience and our self conscience. Our physical conscience is the maintenance portion of our psyche, and this physical body is the vessel of our self conscience psyche. Our duel psyche relationship is able to communicate with each other, thus we can control different portions of our automated functions like breathing and heart rate. Well some of the automated functions of our body do not have a means of communication, so when we get cancer or tumors, we have no means to heal ourselves. Faith creates that bridge of communication for our mind to tell our body to heal itself. By people believing in an external supernatural being that will heal them, then they are sometimes successful in their own healing; thus the necessity and solution of god.

I choose not to capitalize god, because he is not a deity, but rather just another idea. I don't capitalize hate, nor do I capitalize love. I don't even capitalize idea, and this is the one responsible for creating god!

How do you know which religions are "passed down by divine inspiration" and which ones are not? What's the difference between the two?

You go on to assert a dualist notion of the self. You speak of physical conscience and self conscience as being different, and that they are bridged by faith.

Could you elaborate on this for us? What, essentially, are these two sorts of conscience? Why is the mind not physical? What is faith? How does faith bridge the physical and non-physical? How can something non-physical influence physical causation? Is it possible not to have faith?

If you read my introduction, it explains how I have come to believe what I believe. The more credible religions such as Christianity, Muslim, and Buddhism are very intricate forms of religion. These are supported by history, and have properties that reveal the truth in subliminal ways (i.e. the Christian belief god cannot be seen nor heard by a man. This is true when god consists of a collection of thoughts in a non-physical dimension. The Buddhist belief that we can obtain eternal life through tapping into another life form. This is possible because of the origin of thought links all thoughts together across the span of infinity. Separation of thought is a trademark of our dimension.)

Our physical conscience and mental conscience are interconnected. Our mind is a physical collection of brain cells that fire off in different orders to submit different forms of information to and from our senses. Our mental psyche is physical as well as our physical psyche. The two do differ in that they operate independently of each other. If you're in a state of coma, your mental functions are inoperable, however your physical psyche keeps the body functions operational. Take a quadriplegic for example, they cannot physically operate their motor movements due to a physical detachment and lack of communication of the mind to the body. This paralysis is a direct result of lack of communication of body and mind. They are still alive, yet they cannot communicate. An unfortunate physical attribute, but it shows the result of lack of communication between the two.

Our mental psyche is physical, as we are physical beings. Our bodies and minds are physical representatives of non-physical thoughts, functions, and ideas.

Faith, now this is a tricky one. Faith is an idea with a non-physical function. Just as our bodies and minds are physical embodiments of non-physical thoughts, functions, and ideas, faith takes on a physical form of thought. It is the physical development of axons transmitting information through the conductive myelin sheath which branches out into dendrites that end in chemical and electric synapses. These synapses send out neurotransmitters to the receptors and the transmission of information is complete. Faith is quite simply developed physically as just explained and these newly transmitted thoughts create the results of faith.

There is no bridge from physical to nonphysical, they simply coexist. Every nonphysical idea has a physical representative. Faith is simply a neurophysical component developed by necessity, so it is possible not to have faith. If you fight faith your entire life, then you will resist it when it is needed. Faith in self and knowledge of its function could create the same results as faith in god.

Charles m young

"the Christian belief god cannot be seen nor heard by a man"

FYI
I am sure you may have been told this by a miss informed "christian"(Organized religion is it wonderful:mad:), but if they proclaim the Bible as true then they are very wrong. For it is full of testimonies of witnesses, and you can't witness what you can't hear and or see. Their witness is that God said to them, and they heard it and they saw that He did what He said, whether it be one individual or from generation to generation. And they maintained documentation thereof, it was that important to them.

I think I'll disagree.
Evolution does NOT mean creation continues. It means a new phase of the creation is taking place. Creation is finished, as everything was already "created", but it does NOT mean everything "created" has reached it's fullpoint. The fact that something needs evolution, does NOT make it imperfect or incomplete, it's perfect and complete in its current state. Evolution is another of Nature's laws that forces us into a constantly-morphing routine, similar to beginning a new Creation everytime something changes. To put it simply, Nature "creates" a new Creation after an especific time has elapsed. And since Nature must also have been created, and the Creator is God, it means every new Creation is just part of God's work.
God might have gone resting on the seventh day, but his "creations" have surely not!

Charles, you have left some of my questions unanswered.

How do you know which religions are "passed down by divine inspiration" and which ones are not? What's the difference between the two?

In your response you also speak of "the more credible religions" and I have no idea what you mean. What makes one religion more credible than the other?

As for your discussion of the physical and non-physical, perhaps it would be best if you could define these terms for me. What do you mean by physical, and what do you mean by non-physical. From what you have said, the nonphysical seems to be some emergent feature of the physical, but this is just me trying to piece together your claims, so your own clarification would be wonderful.

There is no religion that is totally divine, but rather portions of them. The imagination of man creates many many different aspects and opinions on religion, and therefore there is no accurate means of tracing back to original religious concepts. Religion is subjected to human perception, and we all perceive different realities.

The difference between the divine and non-divine is its origin. When the idea was originally processed by metaphysical thought based on the infinite knowledge of origin, it was conveyed to us as a key to reveal truth, or rather pieces of infinite knowledge. I've already given examples of how some of those infinite truths are conveyed in religion.

They are spanned across the many religions, and if you think in an enlightened state of mind, and understand infinite origin, then you will see the truths in all of the different things in our world. Once you understand that every thing that is physical is a finite representation of infinite metaphysical thoughts, ideas, and effects, then you will comprehend how truth is revealed by all forms of finite perceptions. Study a religion with this concept in mind, and you will find those answers for yourself. Divine inspiration is just the terminology used for the metaphysical thoughts conveyed to physical thoughts.

The difference between physical and non-physical, or metaphysical if you will, is quite simply matter. Movement creates potential energy that produces friction. Friction creates heat that generates kinetic energy. Kinetic energy then can produce electricity. Just as in physics, the conversion of metaphysical to physical is a process, however far more complex. Metaphysical thought is in all essence a metaphysical action, and this action becomes potential energy. That energy condenses into a slow vibration producing matter, and that matter then constitutes everything that is physical. Thus everything that is physical is a byproduct of the metaphysical. The process of conversion for the metaphysical to physical is a very long drawn out process too lengthy to explain in full detail in a forum, but I will write a book on it to thoroughly explain the process.

I hope I explained faith better than this, because it shows how those metaphysical concepts convert into physical matter and effects. The metaphysical is an emergent feature of the physical, and that was a good way to word it. I am very bad about knowing something, but unable to convey my knowledge in a more simplistic fashion. You, however are asking the right questions to get the specific answers, and once you collect my information, you have a good way of simplifying the concepts. Good job Didymos Thomas, I hope you can simplify this post as well.

As for the determination of divinely inspired religions, and non-divine, first understand infinite concepts of origin. There is no such thing as a completely divine religion, because finite opinion and ideology contributes too much into the religion itself. I only have interest in core truth, and I put no stock in opinions pushed as the divine truth. Everything that is pushed as truth based off of nothing more than opinion create problems and division between man. My goal is show, teach, and prove the truth as it is, and unite the world free of opinion extremist views. In order to create peace as a reality we must first take away those things which make unity impossible. Religious extremist views only serve to create uniformity of groups of people, but however they prohibit the unity of all people. If we can understand our origin, we can conclude true purpose, and thus have everything to live for, leaving us nothing to kill or die for. I'm by no means a tree hugger, because I love my cabin out in the woods, and trees grow all the freakin time. We can optimize our world, and use it and ourselves to their and our full potential. Im a little off subject, but I have a lot to think about all at once!

I think this is quite a leap of logic. Aside from the highly dubious nature of metaphysics in general (much of modern philosophy has completely rejected that there is such a thing as metaphysics), to argue that physics is somehow born out of metaphysics is something that you're simply going to have to show, not to argue.

Charles, I actually understand what you are saying here and it's all relatively simple. Where to start...

First, understand that man has ego. Think about it this way, if in fact this is all true, what do you think will happen to the ego of the man who has devoted his entire life to what he thought was truth? Taking it a bit further, imagine how damaging it would be to the ego if this Religion was something that he taught others and his children. To think that one could actually be wrong could cause irreparable harm to the very thing that mankind protects the most... his ego.

Now, to the first post... This to me resonates a little but I don't get the energy feeling from the author himself. This seems more like a logical explanation and not a Universal one.

The most powerful force in Nature

To understand all this, one must first understand mankind. We can study mankind and study philosophy and study science but we'll never understand mankind until we understand ourselves.

An important part to understanding this entire scenario is in the understanding that most powerful force in all creation is MIND. Mind being the spiritual ether and motion force of the Universe that people simply can't fathom. Faith doesn't move mountains, energy does.

We are what we think, not what we eat. Nothing is created without a thought behind it first. Mankind co-creates. The physical world and spiritual world coexist. We all create our realities no matter how big or small... and we create it with out thoughts. Remember, NOTHING can be created in the physical form without first being a thought or idea. So we both coexist and co-create. Man is creating. You are creating, I am creating. We are all creators as we are all creation. We just are.

The Role of Organized Religions

In the beginning was thought and energy. Whenever man came around to exist there was still thought and energy... rhythmic vibrations from the Universe. We were manifestation of thought and we just are.

When conscious dawned on mankind, mankind seen the things that he created and saw that it was good. So good that as man evolved, he began to place his identity in his creations. At some point, man was so proud of his creation that he created an ego and protected it with his physical life... and this is the process of evolution of man.

Man's understanding of ego is none... meaning understanding of self. We can understand science and the balance of nature but the farthest thing from human understanding is that which we are. Although we don't understand it, it has the most control over everything we do and is translated into our creating existence.

Please forgive me if I wander.... it all comes full circle eventually.

Now, what controls man? His ego.... but it goes much deeper than that because our ego is a creation of our thoughts. We think, therefore we are.

Religion, looking back past the time of Jesus was something that man needed. Due to mankind being controlled by ego, there is a heirarchial structure that exists in this egocentric world. Man looks up to other man instead of looking within. Religions, all of them are all different and have their own little twists and turns and while many believe the Bible, there are as many that only believe certain parts. Each has created an idea of a God and this God is responsible for the mans ego... Each man, perceives the world differently and perceives God differently. Even though we attend the same Church or worship the same God, the perception of the God we worship is an individual one. We imagine a God that fits us and thus begin creating it.

When you take a close look at religion, it's long term objective is to divide and conquer. It has taken the ego to new levels of division and created even stronger ego's that protect themselves with their life. Think about all the wars we have due to opposing religious beliefs. Think of all the people who have been brutally murdered in the name of a Religion that man created. Think about it... turn the news on and take a look at our Religious world... It's not rocket science to see that Religion is destroying mankind and will continue to destroy mankind until mankind begins to think.

The difficulty in this proposition is that Religions gain steam and support and believers. Take a look at Joel Osteen for instance. This man has a Christian religion of abundance and financial success, almost as if selling the concept and many people have bought into it. One man, one ego is leading herds of thousands of people... all to blind to see.

Religion is money and power. Religion creates pockets of groups that follow each other around as if they were on a leash. They don't want to know the truth, they simply want to satisfy and protect their egos and do so without even realizing it... Why? Because they simply don't understand it and when the opportunity arises to understand, they turn a blind eye... because as Charles has said, they are supported by history and myths as well as Grandpa and Grandma and how could we question that? I have many examples of such which I will include in my journal.

Faith and Physiology

There have been numerous experiments with this and human beings. If a doctor tells you that you have cancer have only a short time to live, that faith in the doctor can literally allow the perception of something very real and in turn can manifest itself into cancer. We are being told by someone who is much smarter than us that we have an illness... maybe we don't. That doesn't matter, what matters is that whatever we allow to dominate our minds in the form of thought and perception, we will thus create.

Faith and the healing powers of faith are very real. Once a believer can place faith in something, there's a weight lifted off the shoulder. Faith is very powerful and faith has direct control over physiology. Again, I reiterate, first thought, then manifestation... nothing else. It's a law that many don't understand.

When someone gets involved in a faith of any kind, they usually jump in face first. The give up their old way of thinking and they do their best to be under the authority of a minister or spiritual leader that more often than not, doesn't understand that which he teaches... and if questioned or faced with truth, would turn a blind eye to protect his ego. Nobody wants to be told their wrong.

God Loves You!

In the Christian faith, (not to beat on them, I was raised one) God loves you for who you are. Many people are led to Religion because they've hit rock bottom and no where to turn and Religion is an obvious choice. Give your life to Jesus because he loves you and died on the Cross so that you may be saved. Although this sounds convincing, that's not the message that Jesus himself taught. It doesn't matter anyway though...

The thing that matters and what's good about some Religions is that when you tell an unlovely person who is depressed and at rock bottom that Jesus loves them unconditionally... and they begin to believe this. They are able to love themselves and then get involved with others like themselves and have fun, go camping, enjoy religious gatherings, all those things organized Religions do. If accepted, when you realize that God Loves you and sent his only Son so that you may have life eternally... your physical being will begin to change according to the faith.

Accepting oneself is one of the hardest things to do and understand but you can bypass the entire process of finding truth and place it on a shelf because you are happy and found something that makes you feel good. So long as it makes you feel good, protects your ego and offers an explanation for all your worries and blames, it's good.

This type of faith and acceptance will in fact create what we see as miracles of the flesh. Alas, there is a God!

In this God and Religion torn nation, you'd think God's picture should be on the dollar bill. Gods and Religions have DIVIDED and CONQUERED and will continue to destroy the majority of men whilst lifting a very few... Financially and egotistically. Religion is one of the greatest strongholds over man and in the USA, has the greatest control. So much control that it will eventually strip of our ability to function independently and creatively.

All religions answer to leadership of another man or woman. Another man or woman is translating their perception of truth that they think they understand and the people follow and are further instructed to listen and obey. They don't follow God, the majority follow the leadership of the Church they are involved in. Out of that, comes a God that looks good to them... thus assists them in creating an identity for themselves within the Church... I could go on and on.

Logic is controlled by ego. All logic will be lost when man discovers eternity and infinite being. Logic is ego. The coexist and co-create and turn on the news if you want to see the fruit of it.

The bottom line and the beginning of understanding all things starts with understanding oneself.

I haven't proof read and very tired but I hope I've simplified what Charles was saying because I completely understand what he has written and agree with it.

Peace

Not to be too pithy here, but I think all philosophy and all religion comes from the fact that we, as humans, cannot abide the fact that we're just "things". We're smart enough to have self-consciousness, and we're smart enough to impress ourselves with our accomplishments, but in the end we're just as biological and just as finite as a shiitake mushroom or a paramecium. That drives us crazy. That is what convinces us that there must be more out there -- that it can't be as simple as this. That is what dualism is all about, of course, the idea of mind and body being separate things that even have their own metaphysical versus physical realms.

Whether your brain and heart go down the lines of one religion or another depends on whether the religion you've been exposed to relieves this conflict between being a lofty human and being a lowly thing. People who feel that their religious upbringing cannot satisfy this conflict will usually explore something else. If science fills the void for some people it's only because some people are sufficiently uninterested in the human being end of this conflict and are satisfied to concentrate on the thing end of it.

And in the end, which is true? Well, in brief, it's humans who create this conflict and this madness about the spirit and te soul. All we know is real is the shiitake mushroom in us, i.e. the thing.

Aedes
if I may

Why can't we know (being self-consciousness) the source of the "thing" whether man be a thing or no? Or could it be self-consciousness is only what it implies consciousness of self and only self in that it's only so if self is conscious of it. Even in the world and in the earth there are things or facts we don't know but just because we are not conscious of it, does not mean it does not exist.

If there is a Living God then there is a consciousness (state of being) that is not of man.

I'm sure my arguments are things you've heard before, but I'll try anyway

We can know the source of the self-consciousness by the same methods we use to know anything else. I'd argue that our collective observations have shed light on the natural mechanisms that make us a thing with self-consciousness. If by "source" you mean God (or Living God as you put it), then you are going to have to offer a rationale as to why knowledge of God is exempt from the more rigorous empirical criteria we accept for knowledge of anything else. In other words, if God can be truly known, then why might he not stand up to rigorously performed, collective observation?

When you say that our lack of knowledge of things does not mean these things don't exist, that is absolutely true. And that's why we look. That's why we take things apart and observe them. So that we know just a little more with every successive step.

But the problem is that just because we don't have infinite knowledge of all the things the mind can imagine (or all the things tradition has taught us), that doesn't mean that we should operate from the standpoint that things are assumed real until shown not to exist. If that's the case, then I can make as fervent an argument for the existence of unicorns and minotaurs as one can make for the existence of a 'Living God', because neither has been disproved.

And yes, if there is ( = exists) a 'Living God' who embodies the qualities you feel he has, then I could stipulate that consciousness may exist outside of us (humans and animals), i.e. that there is indeed a non-physical realm of the spirit.

But that's a big IF. That's a statement with a conditional and a subjunctive in it, and it hinges upon a proposition that can be believed but not demonstrated. So what separates that proposition from any other?

God exists as a label created by mankind for an energy source behind creation. Man has created a God that suits himself. Understanding and knowing just enough to say we can never truly know... Man has created separation from God. We as man, think that we are separate from creation... when in all actuality, we are creation just as we are creators of our creation.

Consciousness is energy. Our conscious thoughts are created by our perceptions of an illusion of reality. But it's not an illusion because we create the reality. Our thoughts are translated into things. These things are our reality.

I think the hardest thing for anyone to understand is that we as human beings actually co-create our existence. We're creators. If it's all brought back to the heart and core of it all, it starts with our thoughts and it starts inside of man. Man just thinks without understanding these thoughts. Most of the thoughts of man simply go not understood by the man who produces the thoughts. He is simply a passive recipient of other thoughts in the universe and accepts these thoughts based on what will do the most to protect his or her ego.

Why is our Universe spiraling downward? Why is there are a larger gap between the rich and the poor? Why is our world falling apart right in front of our eyes and in the of God or Allah? Why are religious people killing each other? Why is it that the more money you give, the more God will love you?... yet the leaders of these institutions live in lavish homes while they walk by the man on the street that has fallen beneath the ego of others? Why is our world so out of balance?

Man doesn't know himself, so how then can he know God? Mans knowing of God comes from the Bible, Church, leadership of ministers and ministry... it's the old remember and repeat technique that has dominated centuries. Man isn't interested in knowing truth unless that truth is in line with his ego and is accepted by his or her peers... which also supports the Ego.

Why is Religion destroying the world? Why is God something separate from Creation? What is man? These are all questions that can only be answered for those who seek the answers and shed the ego, open their minds and look deeply within themselves.

I'm just rambling here because my thoughts on this are scattered. It's something I understand completely but have a hard time explaining. Charles explains it from a more educated standpoint with terms and scientific explanations. Walter Russell explained very well too but his knowledge of it far surpasses common understanding.

Each man will discover himself and discover God when he or she is ready. The rest will block out anything that would prompt them to second guess their own Ego and continue to just live for the day they die and go to heaven... yet they don't know that heaven is something we not only create but it's something that is as close to us as our own physical nose. It's there if one chooses to look. Follow your nose!

Aedes

But if, but if, but if

let me ask you this then...

Is it then in your view the self-conscious man the highest degree of existence? Could it be that the Fact is higher then the self-conscious man, since I would think that you might agree that the Fact remains for ever.
Why would the existence of a Living God be subject to, depending on, or limited by, one or more conditions.
Or take forms of which are employed to denote an action or a state as conceived (and not as a fact) when reality is demonstrated.

Does it not seem obvious there is power that man don't have, and can not have?

Nope. Something either exists or it doesn't. There are no ranks or degrees. It sure seems like we're the highest form of existence when we celebrate ourselves, or when our tradition tells us so. But couldn't we argue that a quark is the highest form of existence by virtue of its fundamental state? Or could we argue that a galaxy is the highest form of existence? Why self-conscious man, per se?

I'm not sure what you mean by "Fact". I can define "Fact" as a cognitive category for things in whose truth our minds place great confidence. I could also regard "Fact" as the common physical principles that unite various existing things. In the latter definition, I include the things that we understand about ourselves through experience and observation -- and while I may regard them as fundamental compared with self-conscious man, I don't apply a rank. And this is because these common physical principles, in the end, are also cognitive constructs -- we may talk about electromagnetism or gravity as "facts", but gravity itself is nothing other than the totality of all instances in which gravitational force occurs. In other words, it's a cognitive category that does not exist independently.

First off, because you've given God a modifier. To call it a Living God means that it fulfills conditions that distinguish it from a God that does not merit the "Living" modifier.

Remember your own quote: "If there is <condition> a Living God then there is <subjunctive> a consciousness (state of being) that is not of man."

Sure, I can conceive of a God that has no limits. But I can also conceive of a God that has many limits, I can conceive of a God invented by humans, and I can conceive of no God at all.

Yes. We're just things after all.

Once again Justin has very strong inspiring words that put things into different perspectives for me. I have never factored in the ego of man, nor his inability to understand it. Let alone that the ego of man is the tool that compels us to physically protect itself as well as give it a name. creative thought produces energy that condenses to a slow vibration creating matter, and we are simply an imagination of ourselves. It is absolutely genius!

Aedes also has quite a good point. What if we are absolutely dauntless of our origin, and we simply try to imagine the what ifs of our existence and origin. Even so, my purpose and resolve remains the same. The entire driving force behind my belief is balance. The driving force is unity. The driving force is optimal performance of man. If we establish a mindset for people to unify and think rationally, we could unite our world, equally distribute our world resources, and optimize our overall world production. A utopia? Probably not, because we can take into account that there are many people who wish to dominate and control people, and there are people with psychological unbalances. Greed, anger, hatred, and jealousy are controllable faculties of society. The debauchery that is spawned from these personalities such as poverty, violence, division, and theft are the evil tools that will eventually lead to our immanent self destruction.

We are free to believe whatever we choose about creation, existence, and origin, and it is fun to discuss on forums like these. I would argue 'how does one produce physical evidence of metaphysical things only observable through enlightenment and meditation?' but this isn't really an important issue. Lets start a new blog and discuss solutions for the problems currently in our world, and once we fix it, we can debate our origin and beginning.

Amen Brother!

Aedes
The experience of gravity would be the observed manifestation of fact, would you agree?

The Fact: illustration, (illumination), of forms that are.

Would not man need be conscious of the Fact in order to have the Perfect View? And if man's view is not perfect, then lack of consciousness of the Fact (that gives View not of his own), will miss out on what is. If man is self-conscious only surly his view can not be perfect. The history of many lives have proven that. And since there is power man does not have, and can not have, then it must be Fact. If man complies with, or performs the bidding of the Fact, then the result will be reality. but if man does not comply with, or perform the bidding of the Fact, the conceived result does not exist.

Is not awareness of Fact the capacity of judging rightly in matters relating to life and conduct; soundness of judgement in the choice of means and ends?

All flesh lives in fear, and trembles at the Fact, and remains the power of manifestation of the visage of the Most High. The very reason that all things are for.

Then it would be a fool who imposes his will(self-conscious view) before the Fact, when it is the Fact the Perfect View given that should be sufficient.

**********
added note here: If there exist forgiveness in man, then would it not be true that forgiveness is of Fact?
*********

"but gravity itself is nothing other than the totality of all instances in which gravitational force occurs. In other words, it's a cognitive category that does not exist independently."

Not to be presumptuous just for my understanding, do you mean....

1. but the attractive force itself is nothing other than the entirety of all a recurring occasions in which pertaining to, or caused by gravitation's strength, power to meet with encounters. In other words, it's a to the action or process of knowing predicaments that do not exist independently.

Or........
2. but the quality of being itself is nothing other than the whole of all impelling motives in which attraction between overcomes the resistance of, occurs. In other words, it's a reason, understanding the different kinds of notions corresponding to the definite forms of existence that does not exist
independently.

Or could it be...............
3. but the degree of relative heaviness characteristic of any kind or portion of matter itself is nothing other than the moment of occurrence or time of all the present times in which caused by gravitation's influence occurs. In other words, it's a empirically verifiable, it is an individual thing and real substance that does not exist independently.
***********

(Remember your own quote: "If there is <condition> a Living God then there is <subjunctive> a consciousness (state of being) that is not of man.")

I could be mistaken here but I do believe you've added your own modifier.:rolleyes: