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Does god have logic?

 
 
de Silentio
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 06:44 pm
@BRbeliever,
Unfortuneatly, I must be brief.

Quote:
"it was Zeus who was said to have impregnated Alexander the Great's mother"


Wow, where do these people come from, sounds like more teenaged waste land. If you going to make a statement like that, your not in reality and there is no sense in continuing here.

dpmarting, the statement by Neimand is true, they did think Alexander the great was the son of Zues.

Be careful when you make ad hominem arguments.

Also, you should probably be more philosohpic in your statments rather than dogamattic. It is not becoming.

Quote:
There are many who preach or teach wellness in this life but none promise to give eternal Life now.


Budhism does. It's called Nirvana.

Quote:
Neimand - You do know that Muslims worship the same god as Christians and Jews?


Not exactly. Jesus is God to the Christians, He is not God in the other religions you mention. Yes, they all worship a simliar God, but not the same God.
0 Replies
 
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 08:31 pm
@BRbeliever,
Sorry folks, some of this gets old, like discussing long forgotten roman and greek gods, just seems a waste.

Why discuss some thing with some one about something they don't believe or have conviction for. For what good reason and to what end are jumping through those hoops for?
0 Replies
 
de Silentio
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 08:59 pm
@BRbeliever,
Quote:
Why discuss some thing with some one about something they don't believe or have conviction for. For what good reason and to what end are jumping through those hoops for?


I find it healthy to discuss God with people who stand outside of the Chrisitan religion. It is essential to not become wrapped up in the dogmatism that plagues Christianity.

Personally, I have found that some of the people who have helped me a long with my faith are those who provoke discourse about my faith (both personal and interactive discourse), and who better to challenge my faith than those who don't agree with it.

I find knowing why you believe something to be just as important what you believe. Welcome those who are not of the faith. They will help you grow, and who knows, maybe the person on the other side will find faith by questioning your faith.

Anyways, I digress away from the topic.
0 Replies
 
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2008 01:17 pm
@BRbeliever,
De Silentio

You are absolutely correct, and I hope there are more of your cut. Thanks, I will just have to back up and punt.
0 Replies
 
Niemand
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2008 02:19 pm
@dpmartin,
dpmartin wrote:
"it was Zeus who was said to have impregnated Alexander the Great's mother"


Wow, where do these people come from, sounds like more teenaged waste land. If you going to make a statement like that, your not in reality and there is no sense in continuing here.

You claimed that no gods interact with humans as Jesus Christ did, and so I refuted that claim. I don't see how I'm not in reality because the Greeks believed that Zeus impregnated Alexander the Great's mother. :confused:


NeitherExtreme wrote:
But wouldn't it be ungrateful of us to grasp the "gift of consciousness" with both hands without caring about why it was given to us? Or is gratefullness of no consequence?

It could indeed be considered ungrateful, but do we need to be grateful to a deity who has slaughtered innocent children? Who has rent entire cities asunder for merely disagreeing with them? Most importantly, one who scrambled our languages and damned us to many centuries of prejudice and warfare? It all depends on your perspective as to whether not taking our destinies into our own hands is ungrateful or not.


Quote:
Also, is it possible that God can not make others to be His equal? If He is the first existance and prime-reality forever, is it possible that it is not withing His power to bestow that same existance on others? I think it was CS Lewis who commented that God can to anything possible, but not the impossible.
If this is so, then God is not all-powerful and all of His supposed abilities and characteristics are thus called into question.

Quote:
Non-sense or self-contradiction may not be in the realm of "possible", but only exist in the realm of finite fancy or confusion.
And when has God ever been inhibited by doing the impossible? Surely, if God is able to create not only men, but angels and arch-angels, then he is surely capable of bestowing his power unto all living things.

Quote:
Anyway, if that were the case, and God was forever "stuck" being God, wouldn't it be fitting and in accord with truth for everyone else to recognize that fact and live accordingly?
Not particularly. If God is so demanding of praise as he is depicted in the Bible, then I should want to be relinquished of sentience rather than sing false songs of praise to a hated master.

Quote:
And is it possible that God does not use His position to lord it over everyone else in pride, but is simply acting in accordance with truth? And if you take the story of Jesus seriously (God as man), then I would have to come to the conclusion that rather than being prideful and selfish, that His character would be humble and giving and loving? So could it be that it is our selfish perceptions, maybe aided other by rebelious beings, that close our eyes to see His true character (as God in Heaven)?
This is a very possible thing. Maybe it is Lucifer who is truly arrogant and has indeed led me astray. If this is the case, then the all-forgiving and all-merciful God will undoubtedly absolve me of my transgressions against Him and embrace me as his son.

If this is so, then what of the Old Testament? That depiction of God is very unfavourable and one of an angry, vengeful, and jealous god. Indeed, should we then call the Old Testament into question for not portraying a God similar to Jesus?


de Silentio wrote:
Not exactly. Jesus is God to the Christians, He is not God in the other religions you mention. Yes, they all worship a simliar God, but not the same God.

I didn't mean that Jesus Christ was the God of Islam and of Judaism, but that Yaweh is the God of all three. Muslims believe that Christians either misinterpreted or covered up God's true word and mistakenly believed the Messiah to have come already. Jesus is indeed considered a prophet in Islamic mythology, but is not considered the son of god.

Jews, on the other hand, think that Mohammed was not a prophet and that the Messiah has not come yet. Basically, Islam and Christianity are spin-offs of Judaism and therefore all worship the same God. Jesus is merely the incarnation of God in human form, that and nothing more.
NeitherExtreme
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2008 04:23 pm
@Niemand,
Thanks for the response Niemand! You raise many qeustions that I've raised (and lost sleep over) myself many times, though from a decidedly different starting point. This should be a good conversation. Smile
Niemand wrote:

It could indeed be considered ungrateful, but do we need to be grateful to a deity who has slaughtered innocent children? Who has rent entire cities asunder for merely disagreeing with them? Most importantly, one who scrambled our languages and damned us to many centuries of prejudice and warfare? It all depends on your perspective as to whether not taking our destinies into our own hands is ungrateful or not.

I'll respond to those comments in reverse order. Hope that doesn't make it confusing...

I think that it would be ungrateful to take our destinies in our own hands if that was not the purpose of the gift (consciousness). Let's say I had a brother who desperately needed transportation so that he could get to work and no longer depend on my money. So I buy him a car. He sells the car and spends the money on an expensive bottle of wine and gets drunk. That would be ungrateful of him. God has given us choice in a million ways, but there is one choice that we ought not make- the choice to turn our hearts away from Him. Yet even that He allows- though it often seems crazy to me that He would.

About language and our ability to hurt each other: In the story presented in Genesis, God is not hurting humanity by scambling languages, but limiting their ability to cause evil. He does a similar thing at the time of the flood by reducing lifespan from ~900 years to 120. IMO, it is also the reason for removing from us the tree of life (for the present life). This brings me to another idea that was an important realization for me along the way: There are real, concrete limits on the pain and evil that can be experienced or caused, and that God has set those limits. Any pain (emotion/physical) can only be felt for so long, about 80 years or so for us today. Emotional pain has certain "shut-offs" built into the human mind. Physical pain has limits- shock and death. Limits exist.

I still must emphatically say that those limits seem much, much, much too high to me, from my perspective. I can not comprehend such gains that would make this much possibility of pain good to have been. But if there are gains so great, then they must be great indeed. And this is what I believe and hope for.

About God destroying things and people, and the NT/OT contrasts... Yes, its a difficult question. First, I want to say that the "Loving God" can be seen throughout the OT, both towards Israel and the "Gentiles". But there is also the (conflicting?) message of a jealous God, and one who at times treats humans with anger and vengence.

So the question must be asked... Why is He angry? Is it because He wants worship for Himself? I think He already has that. Does He need us? We have nothing that He didn't give us. So why should He care? I think that if He needs or wants us, it is because He chooses to...

It is clearly stated in the NT and OT that God does not take pleasure in any suffering or punishment given to man. It is also clearly stated (NT/OT) that He loves humanity, and that He wants them to be whole and healed and fullfilled. So as far as I can tell, He is angry that people (and maybe Lucifer etc.) are hurting people. Read the story of Cain and Able again- the first instance of sin after the fall. Is God angry and looking to punish? Or is He horrified at the choices that Cain is making? So take this idea on a large scale, and in the interest of steering and protecting man from man, He at times punishes man on this large scale. Again, from my individual perspective, this seems unfair and incomprehensible. But if the story is true, it is eternal life that will count, and it is God who will judge that, and He will be able to take into account every individual situation and the chance that each person had, and the heart that they had cultivated.

And "do we need to be grateful to a Diety..."? No. As mentioned already, He gives us that choice.

Niemand wrote:

If this is so, then God is not all-powerful and all of His supposed abilities and characteristics are thus called into question.

And when has God ever been inhibited by doing the impossible? Surely, if God is able to create not only men, but angels and arch-angels, then he is surely capable of bestowing his power unto all living things.


All I'm saying is that what is intrinsically not possible can not be done. To think that they could is just a trick of words or the trick of a finite imagination: "This sentence is a lie." God can not make that true. It's just nonsense. So what I'm saying is that this "nonsense" concept may hold true in an existential sense. Maybe God can not be God and create others equal to Him, because He created them. The very idea may be nonsense.

Niemand wrote:

Not particularly. If God is so demanding of praise as he is depicted in the Bible, then I should want to be relinquished of sentience rather than sing false songs of praise to a hated master.

That may very well be granted to those who choose it. God seems to have put a high priority on humanity's dignity to choose. But along with that it may be possible that those who have choosen such a fate may get a glimpse of what freedoms and fullfilment He has planned for those who love Him, and glimpse how fitting, proper, and fullfilling it is to worship Him face to face, and desperately regret the choice they made.

Niemand wrote:

This is a very possible thing. Maybe it is Lucifer who is truly arrogant and has indeed led me astray. If this is the case, then the all-forgiving and all-merciful God will undoubtedly absolve me of my transgressions against Him and embrace me as his son.

That may also be true. I don't know- and I don't pretend to know- the details of how God will judge when the time comes. The three things that I strongly believe is that (1) it will be our hearts that are judged rather than our actions or circumstances, (2) it will be through Jesus that those who are forgiven will be forgiven, and (3) that there will be the overwhelming feeling and understanding that God is making all things right.
0 Replies
 
de Silentio
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Feb, 2008 08:53 pm
@BRbeliever,
Quote:
I didn't mean that Jesus Christ was the God of Islam and of Judaism, but that Yaweh is the God of all three. Muslims believe that Christians either misinterpreted or covered up God's true word and mistakenly believed the Messiah to have come already. Jesus is indeed considered a prophet in Islamic mythology, but is not considered the son of god.

Jews, on the other hand, think that Mohammed was not a prophet and that the Messiah has not come yet. Basically, Islam and Christianity are spin-offs of Judaism and therefore all worship the same God. Jesus is merely the incarnation of God in human form, that and nothing more.


From what I understand of Christianity, Jesus IS God, just like the Holy Spirit is God. All Three exist, and are at the same time one (basic trinity). Jesus is God, just like God is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Thus Jesus is God to the Christians.

Jesus is not God to the other two, therefore, all three do not worship the same God.

Christianity is not "spin-off" of Judiasm, Judiasm is the our beginning of knowing the fullness of Christianity. Jesus existed during the reign of the Old Testimant, He has always existed. Christ existed before He came to Earth.

However, I understand where you are going, but acording to Christian Doctorine I think you are incorrect.
0 Replies
 
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2008 07:12 am
@BRbeliever,
Just for the record if I may...

I would like the apologize for the error in judgment on my part. I was wrong and incorrect on the subject of other gods, other then my own. Once again I apologize.
0 Replies
 
de Silentio
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Feb, 2008 08:42 pm
@BRbeliever,
It's hard to admit when one is wrong, but it is one of the most important things one can do to advance his wisdom.
0 Replies
 
Deus ex machina phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2008 05:10 pm
@BRbeliever,
I observe a logical progression in the state and form of the universe throughout time.

From the initial simplicity of the primeval universe, an 'ocean' of hydrogen and helium gas, bathed in energy was eventually 'molded by natural laws' into all the galaxies containing every star and planet and sentient creature upon them today.
This is a reversal of what we normally observe, that things decay and breakdown over time, life forms exemplify this simplex quality of the macro universe, in other words like the stars and planets, living things are entities which evolved from less complex origins.

Evolution, be it stellar or organic, is an underlying feature of the universe, the evolution of mammals is as much a product of the laws of physics as stellar nucleosynthesis is, only more complex, far more complex...

Thus if the universe and Plato's world of physics & math together are the mind/body of God then we humans and other animals are physical extensions of Him our logic would indeed not be too different from Gods, I speculate that we only understand a portion of the bigger picture, naturally as we can only ever be subjective observers within a greater reality, limited as we are by our naturally selected, parochial minds.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Apr, 2008 04:48 pm
@Deus ex machina phil,
1) Logical Hubris? To me it seems that people have a quite myopic view of what logic is. Western/Classical/Formal Logic has been culturally co-opoted as "the ideal" of the positive world. There is logic to most anything. It is simply a rational method of proof. The relativity lies in the axioms presupposed by the logician. The method varies because the goal is different. As far as this applies to GOD's logic, we may have adopted a series of metaphysical and materialist axioms that promote LOGIC as we see it, which leads to comment 2.

2) Any logic relies on accurate information and a grasp of what is assumed to be "real", Assuming that any God is Omnipotent, or at least more knowledgeable in certain arenas than we are, because if they were not they would likely not be Gods, then we can assume that they have a wider array of accurate information and better grasp on what is "real" than we do.

3) So it may be that we have the same logic as God with a more limited scope, or it is possible that our logic and God's Cannot be related because we don't have a grasp on reality, or the body of knowledge that S/he/it has.
0 Replies
 
vajrasattva
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 02:02 pm
@BRbeliever,
I would pose the questions to all of you What is logic? What is God? Can we know God? and of course, Can we know Gods logic?

In my personal opinion we cannot know or understand Gods logic just as we cannot know or understand God. Because God is a purely a priori concept that is demanded by human reason and carries the demand of being absolute and infinite which are two concepts that cannot be experienced by humans. So gods logic is out of the question. This is where faith comes in. The tenet of faith is doubt because if it could be knowledge it would not be faith. And according to the bible the wisdom of god makes mans wisdom look infantile so clearly his logic transcends human logic due to the infiniteness of the concept.
0 Replies
 
Rivelli
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 May, 2008 06:46 pm
@InsideOutsider5,
You should assume that if there is a God that created the universe, the only way to really know his thoughts is to "reverse engineer" the universe through science as much as you can to make your best educated guess as to whether God has logic. Like Einstein wanting to find out Gods thoughts through Science, we can do the same specifically about logic.
vajrasattva
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2008 01:39 pm
@Rivelli,
I believe that god exists but I have no knowledge of his essence so I cannot know weather or not it has logic as for you i have no idea
0 Replies
 
nameless
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 May, 2008 05:44 pm
@BRbeliever,
BRbeliever wrote:
If god has no logic, then we have no logic since we are him and he is us.
We have logic, so therefore he must have logic.

This is fallacious thinking; non-sequitur and spurious assumptions.
'Logic' is a notion in a thinking brain.
'God' does not have a thinking brain (like a human). You (anthropomorphize, make 'god' in your image) assume much. I smell 'belief'...
Why am I supposed to accept your assumptive premise that we are God?
The evidence presents that we do conceive (have) 'logic', all the evidence.
0 Replies
 
 

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