0
   

Does god have logic?

 
 
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 05:59 am
If god has no logic, then we have no logic since we are him and he is us.
We have logic, so therefore he must have logic.

If god has logic, can this logic be understood by humans?
If humans cannot understand god's logic, then there is no point in believing in god, since this results in not knowing what his intentions are. Saying his intentions are doing what is best for us would in this case be part of god's logic, and if there is no logic in his doing what's best for us, god's will could be anything: spreading war, developing global stupidity, corrupting the human spirit, etc.

If humans can understand god's logic, then I would like someone to explain it to me.
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 3,065 • Replies: 34
No top replies

 
topherfox
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 08:08 am
@BRbeliever,
You assume that God is even remotely attach to something like logic or reason. Reason and logic are basically a different type of language that humans can express their ideas with. We assume if there is a God that he is a rational being that gives purpose to the world. There is no real rational explanation for our existence, so we assume some other higher form must be at work with some plan, giving some ultimate purpose to our existence. If we were even remotely close in rationale to this higher being we would at least have the answer to this basic question.
de Silentio
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 09:21 am
@topherfox,
topherfox wrote:
You assume that God is even remotely attach to something like logic or reason.


If The Bible is any indication of God's nature, John 1:1 uses the Greek word Logos to describe God. We translate this as 'Word', but Logos has logic undertones. In fact, Logos is translated into Logic sometimes. (I think)
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 12:28 pm
@de Silentio,
de Silento is right, logos definately carries the notion of being logically coherent. If "the Word" was incoherent, it wouldn't be much of a word, hmm?

Quote:
Reason and logic are basically a different type of language that humans can express their ideas with.


No, not at all. Go look up the terms "reason" and "logic".

Quote:
There is no real rational explanation for our existence, so we assume some other higher form must be at work with some plan, giving some ultimate purpose to our existence. If we were even remotely close in rationale to this higher being we would at least have the answer to this basic question.


Sure there is an explaination for our existence. Evolution explains how human life developed.
What you mean by "ultimate purpose" I have no idea. What would an ultimate purpose be? Can you define this?

Quote:
If humans can understand god's logic, then I would like someone to explain it to me.


How is God's logic any different than logic? Logic is, most basically, the law of noncontradiction - that something cannot both have and lack a property at the same time, in the same respect. For example, I cannot stand 5'9" and 6'5" at the same time. To say "Thomas is both 5'9" and 6'5"" is logically incoherent.
Why must this be any different for God?

But, BRbeliever, you are assuming that God and man are something apart from one another, rather than being the same thing, or at least closely related. Why, and how are they different?
BRbeliever
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 01:05 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
First of all, thank you for your constructive post i can work with.

Didymos Thomas wrote:

No, not at all. Go look up the terms "reason" and "logic".


My thoughts exactly.

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Sure there is an explaination for our existence. Evolution explains how human life developed.
What you mean by "ultimate purpose" I have no idea. What would an ultimate purpose be? Can you define this?

I myself think this is the most important reason to why people believe in God. A, if not THE (though still uncertain), purpose.


Didymos Thomas wrote:

How is God's logic any different than logic? Logic is, most basically, the law of noncontradiction - that something cannot both have and lack a property at the same time, in the same respect. For example, I cannot stand 5'9" and 6'5" at the same time. To say "Thomas is both 5'9" and 6'5"" is logically incoherent.
Why must this be any different for God?

But, BRbeliever, you are assuming that God and man are something apart from one another, rather than being the same thing, or at least closely related. Why, and how are they different?


I don't think God and men are one nor think they aren't. I'm just trying to figure out what would be when they are and what would be when they aren't, logically Wink.

If God and men are one then God must have logic, because everything we do is God and everything we do has reason and logic.

If God and men aren't one then we can ask ourselves, does God have logic?
etc.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jan, 2008 02:54 pm
@BRbeliever,
Quote:
I myself think this is the most important reason to why people believe in God. A, if not THE (though still uncertain), purpose.


I still have no idea what you mean by "ultimate purpose". Sure, I've heard people use this phrase before, but I've never heard anyone give a coherent explaination as to what an "ultimate purpose" would look like and why we need one.

Quote:
I don't think God and men are one nor think they aren't. I'm just trying to figure out what would be when they are and what would be when they aren't, logically .

If God and men are one then God must have logic, because everything we do is God and everything we do has reason and logic.

If God and men aren't one then we can ask ourselves, does God have logic?


Okay, then what is God? Is He something fundamental to everything? Or is he something fundamentally different from everything? Or somewhere in between?
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jan, 2008 09:18 am
@BRbeliever,
Where the bible contains internal contradictions, does that condemn its logic as imperfect? Or is that something that will be rationalized away by those who insist that it should be logical? And the bible doesn't really make logical arguments anyway -- it's a narrative but not a proof, and it takes certain things for granted.

So where is there any foundation in scripture that tells us whether God is logical or not? If God is all powerful, all knowing, and he transcends time, then he does not need logic, because the universe and all points of space and time correspond to his will even if they seem contradictory to us. Otherwise how could you reconcile logic with miracles??
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jan, 2008 03:43 pm
@Aedes,
Quote:
Where the bible contains internal contradictions, does that condemn its logic as imperfect? Or is that something that will be rationalized away by those who insist that it should be logical? And the bible doesn't really make logical arguments anyway -- it's a narrative but not a proof, and it takes certain things for granted.


You are right that the Bible does not make logical arguments. There is little need for logical arguments in spiritual teaching. The contradictions are not something to be rationalized so that we can claim the Bible is logical, but the contradictions do exist and exist for some reason.

Quote:
So where is there any foundation in scripture that tells us whether God is logical or not? If God is all powerful, all knowing, and he transcends time, then he does not need logic, because the universe and all points of space and time correspond to his will even if they seem contradictory to us. Otherwise how could you reconcile logic with miracles??


First, just because something seems contradictory to a man, does not mean that it is illogical. I suppose I'm not sure what it would be for God to be illogical. How would God both have a property and lack that property at the same time and in the same respect?
Of course, if God is beyond time (whatever that means) then he, it seems, at least cannot be illogical. So it would seem, if God is not illogical, that he logical. I'm not sure this is sufficient. All we've done is take God out of time, by definition, and therefore, by definition, he cannot be illogical.
0 Replies
 
InsideOutsider5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 05:19 pm
@BRbeliever,
BRbeliever wrote:
If god has no logic, then we have no logic since we are him and he is us.
We have logic, so therefore he must have logic.

If god has logic, can this logic be understood by humans?
If humans cannot understand god's logic, then there is no point in believing in god, since this results in not knowing what his intentions are. Saying his intentions are doing what is best for us would in this case be part of god's logic, and if there is no logic in his doing what's best for us, god's will could be anything: spreading war, developing global stupidity, corrupting the human spirit, etc.

If humans can understand god's logic, then I would like someone to explain it to me.



This is an unsound argument...
0 Replies
 
InsideOutsider5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 05:21 pm
@BRbeliever,
BRbeliever wrote:
If god has no logic, then we have no logic since we are him and he is us.
We have logic, so therefore he must have logic.

If god has logic, can this logic be understood by humans?
If humans cannot understand god's logic, then there is no point in believing in god, since this results in not knowing what his intentions are. Saying his intentions are doing what is best for us would in this case be part of god's logic, and if there is no logic in his doing what's best for us, god's will could be anything: spreading war, developing global stupidity, corrupting the human spirit, etc.

If humans can understand god's logic, then I would like someone to explain it to me.


This is an unsound argument...
Also, just because you cant understand Gods logic does not mean ther is no point in believing in him. If we could understand Gods logic then we would have to be Gods ourself...
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 02:08 pm
@BRbeliever,
If I may be advocate on this one
If there is a Living God, why would He be require to meet your logic, or reason to be the Living God? If there is a Living God surly He does not need to fit in your minds. Or even be understandable to you unless He saw fit to do so. He don't need us to Live or to be who and what He is. Are we not of the earth and to the earth we return?

If there is a Living God that is not of the earth and has made the earth, then should not that which is of the earth meet His requirement to know Him?

If there is a Living God...
He is the Power that we don't have.

His is the fact of reality that is not required to see you through anything.

He is not required to give you any thing.

And if there is a Living God then He is Light and is not required to entertain darkness.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 02:41 pm
@BRbeliever,
BRbeliever wrote:
If god has no logic, then we have no logic since we are him and he is us.
We have logic, so therefore he must have logic.

If god has logic, can this logic be understood by humans?
If humans cannot understand god's logic, then there is no point in believing in god, since this results in not knowing what his intentions are. Saying his intentions are doing what is best for us would in this case be part of god's logic, and if there is no logic in his doing what's best for us, god's will could be anything: spreading war, developing global stupidity, corrupting the human spirit, etc.

If humans can understand god's logic, then I would like someone to explain it to me.


I wonder what it would mean for anyone (including God) to "have" logic.
When you talk of "God's logic" do you mean that God somehow reasons in a way that human beings don't? Could you give an example of "God's logic"?
0 Replies
 
Niemand
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 02:54 pm
@BRbeliever,
Everyone is discussing god as if it is true what the Bible speaks. Is it not an affront to reason to not include all gods? Is it not the duty of the philosopher to put all possibilities into consideration before even forming an opinion?

But, considering the Christian argument: What of Lucifer? The fallen arch-angel who was expelled from Paradise for attempting to make all of God's creatures his equal? Is this not a more admirable and noble being than a jealous god that demands your praise and hurts you if you do otherwise? What kind of god is that?

Concerning its logic, what of logic itself? Is our basis for logic not formed based on experience? If this is so, then what if our experience is a fallacy itself? What if our perception of the world is flawed and it is truly not as we perceive? If this is so, then all our conceptions of god and ideas concerning life are turned on their heads!
0 Replies
 
de Silentio
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 07:36 pm
@BRbeliever,
Niemand - The Hammer and the Sickle, nice.

Quote:
Everyone is discussing god as if it is true what the Bible speaks. Is it not an affront to reason to not include all gods?


I that that was the original implication, I suppose I was wrong to make that assumption. However, He of the Christian Bible is the only God that I know any considerable knowledge about, so He is the only God I can comment on with credibility.

However, I don't think it is possible to include all god's equal, since some are vastly different. We would first have to aggree on the qualities that all god's share equally, and I don't know if there are any.

Quote:
Is it not the duty of the philosopher to put all possibilities into consideration before even forming an opinion?


If this were the case, I don't think we would ever come to forming any opinions!

Quote:
What of Lucifer? The fallen arch-angel who was expelled from Paradise for attempting to make all of God's creatures his equal? Is this not a more admirable and noble being than a jealous god that demands your praise and hurts you if you do otherwise? What kind of god is that?


Interesting. First I will tackle the latter part of this statement. God's Retribution for not abiding by His laws is no more wrong than man's Retribution for not abiding by his laws.

As the creator of man, would not God know what is best for man? Historically, it is apparent that we typically don't know what is best for ourselves.

Now about Lucifer. I am no authority on the subject, and frankly I have little actual knowledge of how the Bible treats Lucifer, but I am pretty certain that we don't know the whole story. There is no doubt more to the story than what we know of it.

Perhaps this is a good question (and perhaps not?): If the Tree of Knowledge has the power to bestow such a great power on man, maybe man becoming equal with God would destory some aspect of what it is to be man, then man would no longer exist.

Quote:
Concerning its logic, what of logic itself? Is our basis for logic not formed based on experience?


I don't think pure logic is based on experience. Pure logic is known a priori.
Niemand
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 08:09 pm
@de Silentio,
de Silentio wrote:

I that that was the original implication, I suppose I was wrong to make that assumption. However, He of the Christian Bible is the only God that I know any considerable knowledge about, so He is the only God I can comment on with credibility.

Oh, I was not aware that the discussion was started talking about the Christian god. Apologies.

Quote:
However, I don't think it is possible to include all god's equal, since some are vastly different. We would first have to aggree on the qualities that all god's share equally, and I don't know if there are any.

You wouldn't have to agree on the common characteristics of every god as most gods have different traits and are of different orientations. For instance, Dionysus and Mars are two totally different deities and can't really be taken as equal gods, I suppose. But, a truly sound definition of god would only be possible after taking all theories into consideration.

Quote:

If this were the case, I don't think we would ever come to forming any opinions!

Well, educated opinions anyway.

Quote:

Interesting. First I will tackle the latter part of this statement. God's Retribution for not abiding by His laws is no more wrong than man's Retribution for not abiding by his laws.

And yet, if a law is unjust is the retribution which follows for breaking said law just?

Quote:

As the creator of man, would not God know what is best for man? Historically, it is apparent that we typically don't know what is best for ourselves.

True, but is the dignity of self-determination not better than submission to some enigmatic deity that seems to have the mood swings of an adolescent?

Quote:

Now about Lucifer. I am no authority on the subject, and frankly I have little actual knowledge of how the Bible treats Lucifer, but I am pretty certain that we don't know the whole story. There is no doubt more to the story than what we know of it.

I've read the Bible twice and know a considerable amount about it. I can't quote it offhand or anything, but I do have quite a voluminous knowledge concerning Christian mythology.

In the Bible, Lucifer and Satan are never really connected. In one breath the speak of Lucifer, which is Latin for "light-bearer" and in another they mention Satan out of nowhere. We can only presume that Lucifer and Satan are one in the same. Either way, we only know God's side of the story and the closest thing to Lucifer's is Milton's Paradise Lost.

Interestingly enough, the Koran states that Lucifer rebels against God for being ordered to bow to man as he's pledged to bow only to God himself. Moreover, the Koran questions Lucifer's identity itself. It states that angels are incapable of disobeying God and that Lucifer, or Iblis, must therefore be some different sort of creature.


Quote:
Perhaps this is a good question (and perhaps not?): If the Tree of Knowledge has the power to bestow such a great power on man, maybe man becoming equal with God would destory some aspect of what it is to be man, then man would no longer exist.

Well, in the Bible, the Tree of Knowledge gave Adam and Eve only the illusion of good and evil, but really gave them nothing as they could not possibly comprehend the two as only God could.

Even if we could be elevated to God's level, as Lucifer dreamed of, then we would indeed cease to be human beings. Instead, we would become gods. That would either produce a golden age in history or cause the greatest destruction yet witnessed by any living thing. Either way, I'd be satisfied at attaining perfect equality once and for all.

Quote:

I don't think pure logic is based on experience. Pure logic is known a priori.

Maybe, but how can you be sure of that?
0 Replies
 
de Silentio
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 08:37 pm
@BRbeliever,
I don't have long, so I can only respond to a portion of your post, sorry. Hopefully I will have time enough this weekend to think about a response for the rest of it (particularly the discussion about God's retribution)
Quote:
True, but is the dignity of self-determination not better than submission to some enigmatic deity that seems to have the mood swings of an adolescent?

You were comparing Lucifer to God earlier, now you are comparing Lucifer to himself. First you said that Lucifer is more admirable and noble for attempting to make all of God's creatures his equal than God, who demands praised then punishes those who do not give it to him. Then you say: Lucifer is more dignified for his self-determination rather than submitting to God.

Now, for what you call God. If God is all knowing, he only acts out of necessity and unadulterated reason. A child, on the other hand, acts out of emotional upheaval, which is hardly ever necessary. I do not think your comparison of God to an adolescent child who has mood swings is fair.
[quote] Even if we could be elevated to God's level, as Lucifer dreamed of, then we would indeed cease to be human beings. Instead, we would become gods. That would either produce a golden age in history or cause the greatest destruction yet witnessed by any living thing. Either way, I'd be satisfied at attaining perfect equality once and for all.[/quote]
Two things: 1) Why would God create man to have fellowship with, then want them to become something other than man?

2) If man became a God like God, how would he be the creation? God is eternal, having no beginning and no end. Man, however, has a beginning. If he became like God, he would become eternal, and have no beginning. All of this leading to contradictions, which we cannot have.
[quote] Either way, I'd be satisfied at attaining perfect equality once and for all.[/quote]
Not I. I enjoy who and what I am. I do not mind being like God, but I prefer to be myself when I converse with God upon my death, imperfections and all.
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 10:38 am
@BRbeliever,
if you want to compare gods

What god other than the God of Jesus proclaims mercy to man, salvation to man, the knowledge of salvation now, while you yet are in the flesh. To what name other than Jesus Of Nazareth the Christ, is the calling to be come sons of God. No other profits other that the profits of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob proclaim to love have longsuffering and heal. No other gods give to man, speaks to man that can be verified by the follower, to resurrect man unto eternal life. No other god offers such assurances to man now, while man yet be in the flesh. No other god has a relationship with man, there is no other god that is described as a God who walks with men. All other gods are some where else. Even a muslim will tell you he has no relationship with his god. There is no other God that has given a name unto salvation for mankind but the name Jesus the Christ that can be choosen.

There are many who preach or teach wellness in this life but none promise to give eternal Life now.
0 Replies
 
Niemand
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 02:44 pm
@de Silentio,
de Silentio wrote:

You were comparing Lucifer to God earlier, now you are comparing Lucifer to himself. First you said that Lucifer is more admirable and noble for attempting to make all of God's creatures his equal than God, who demands praised then punishes those who do not give it to him. Then you say: Lucifer is more dignified for his self-determination rather than submitting to God.

Some clarification is necessary. When I was speaking of self-determination I was not talking about Lucifer at all. Rather, I was responding to your comment about humankind historically not doing what is best for it.


[quote]Now, for what you call God. If God is all knowing, he only acts out of necessity and unadulterated reason. A child, on the other hand, acts out of emotional upheaval, which is hardly ever necessary. I do not think your comparison of God to an adolescent child who has mood swings is fair.[/quote]True, my comparison was admittedly a little unfair. The point is, however, that God's actions may indeed be out of necessity, but only necessity as he sees it. His defeat of Lucifer's revolution was the act of a desperate monarch. He would rather send half of Heaven to be eternally tortured in Hell than ending his ego-trip and letting everyone become equal.

Quote:

1) Why would God create man to have fellowship with, then want them to become something other than man?

It is inconsequential what God had originally intended humankind for. This is as Lucifer thought in concern to his race of angels. What is important, though, is what we intend to do with ourselves now that we have the gift of consciousness. Lucifer and his band of angels and arch-angels may have much more power and ability than we, but we can certainly help each other reach the same end: equality.


[quote]2) If man became a God like God, how would he be the creation? God is eternal, having no beginning and no end. Man, however, has a beginning. If he became like God, he would become eternal, and have no beginning. All of this leading to contradictions, which we cannot have.[/quote]Sure, the original god has no beginning or no end, so we think. This does not mean the same would apply to us after achieving such perfection. Or, perhaps, a state with only a few less imperfections. Or maybe even a whole lot more imperfections depending on your perspective.

Elevating ourselves to God's level would not mean that we would need to have the same origin. It would only mean that we would have the same end result: eternal life. Or maybe after achieving victory we'd put God to death. Who knows.


[quote]Not I. I enjoy who and what I am. I do not mind being like God, but I prefer to be myself when I converse with God upon my death, imperfections and all.[/quote]And if we all were to attain godliness, then maybe you would choose to remain a human being. You would certainly have that right as Lucifer's rebellion was focused on more than just egalitarianism, but the right of all of God's creatures to self-determination.


dpmartin wrote:

What god other than the God of Jesus proclaims mercy to man, salvation to man, the knowledge of salvation now, while you yet are in the flesh. To what name other than Jesus Of Nazareth the Christ, is the calling to be come sons of God. No other profits other that the profits of the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob proclaim to love have longsuffering and heal.

That, to be outright with it, is absolute bullshit. There is an abundance of gods that make similar claims such as Vishnu of Hinduism that gives certain individuals liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth and places them in a state of Moksha. It's the equivalent of the Christian Heaven and is also considered a possible origin for the concept of Heaven in Christian mythology.


Quote:

No other gods give to man, speaks to man that can be verified by the follower, to resurrect man unto eternal life. No other god offers such assurances to man now, while man yet be in the flesh. No other god has a relationship with man, there is no other god that is described as a God who walks with men.

As pointed out earlier, Vishnu does indeed promise humankind eternal life. Moreover, if one wishes to see gods interacting with human beings, one need only look to the Greek and Roman gods to see such an abundance of these interactions. For instance, it was Zeus who was said to have impregnated Alexander the Great's mother!

Quote:
All other gods are some where else. Even a muslim will tell you he has no relationship with his god. There is no other God that has given a name unto salvation for mankind but the name Jesus the Christ that can be choosen.

You do know that Muslims worship the same god as Christians and Jews?

dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 01:41 pm
@BRbeliever,
"it was Zeus who was said to have impregnated Alexander the Great's mother"


Wow, where do these people come from, sounds like more teenaged waste land. If you going to make a statement like that, your not in reality and there is no sense in continuing here.
NeitherExtreme
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Feb, 2008 03:21 pm
@Niemand,
Um... dpmartin, we Christians believe that God empregnated Mary and was the Father of Jesus. Wink Not through intercourse obviously, but just the same, we shouldn't demand normal "reality" be the judge of everyone else belief if it is not the judge of ours.

Niemand wrote:

It is inconsequential what God had originally intended humankind for. This is as Lucifer thought in concern to his race of angels. What is important, though, is what we intend to do with ourselves now that we have the gift of consciousness.

Hi Niemand. Smile You've had some intersting thoughts and insights so far, and certainly have looked at things a bit differently than I ever had. But wouldn't it be ungrateful of us to grasp the "gift of consciousness" with both hands without caring about why it was given to us? Or is gratefullness of no consequence?

Also, is it possible that God can not make others to be His equal? If He is the first existance and prime-reality forever, is it possible that it is not withing His power to bestow that same existance on others? I think it was CS Lewis who commented that God can to anything possible, but not the impossible. Non-sense or self-contradiction may not be in the realm of "possible", but only exist in the realm of finite fancy or confusion. Anyway, if that were the case, and God was forever "stuck" being God, wouldn't it be fitting and in accord with truth for everyone else to recognize that fact and live accoringly? And is it possible that God does not use His position to lord it over everyone else in pride, but is simply acting in accordance with truth? And if you take the story of Jesus seriously (God as man), then I would have to come to the conclusion that rather than being prideful and selfish, that His character would be humble and giving and loving? So could it be that it is our selfish perceptions, maybe aided other by rebelious beings, that close our eyes to see His true character (as God in Heaven)?

Just to be clear, I'm not offended by your questioning of God's charecter. I've spent many long nights doing the same, and my conclusions have not always been pretty either. And those aren't all suposed to be just rhetorical questions, I expect that you will disagree with some, or all, of it... They're just a few thoughts in response to your posts, and not at all thouroughly thought through.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
morals and ethics, how are they different? - Question by existential potential
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Does god have logic?
Copyright © 2023 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 02/03/2023 at 10:33:11