is make up the burka of western society?

What does Make-up have to do with human relations or philosophy for that matter?

do you believe that Muslim women covering their faces with burkas and western women covering their faces with make up, isnt a symptom of a wider philosphical and ideological problem on our planet.

and furthermore,

of course this is philosophical debate, i am just rooting it to something a little more tangible and trying to give it some topicality.

if you cant see that i am talking philosophy then....

I'm not sure about the Muslim women and Burkas. I thought it was more of some sort of rule for Muslim women practicing in the Muslim religion and imposed upon them by their religion or the Muslim men. However of course, my interest in studying why Muslim women wear Burkas is slim to none.

As far as make-up on western women, that is something western women have chosen to do long ago to cover blemishes and pretty up their faces. Is it a, "symptom of a wider philosphical and ideological problem on our planet"... Well, there are just too many other problems that plague our planet to worry about Burkas and the make-up women wear. So, I don't see the philosophical debate over this.

Just my opinion... If anyone else can offer an answer to this or wishes to debate on this subject, feel free.

if we have a symptom on our planet of women covering their faces, i think the cause merits a little discussion.

also its a fine line between freedom to choose and social pressure don't you think?


i certainly believe its more important than some of your other threads, such as UFO over Finland, or Happy valentines day, i would love to know the contribution they are making to the forum, or even if the existence of those threads is being questioned?


jojo

I would never beat my wife for not wearing her makeup, so I'm afraid I don't see the overall picture you're trying to demonstrate.

You may be right, maybe this calls for discussion. However, I think the focus on symptoms rather than causes is a philosophical and ideological problem on our planet.

If it's important to you to discuss this topic the by all means, you are encouraged to do so. You may find someone else who wishes to discuss it also. I would encourage a focus point on the discussion though. Are we talking freedoms or social pressures? Anyway, let's see how the discussion turns.

Women in Western Culture wear makeup to enhance their features, not cover them up because they're a lesser person for being a woman.
They have the freedom to choose, and social pressure only affects those who let it affect them.
This is no more or less important than any other thread in this board...I would like to know your reasoning for these threads you mentioned, being less important though.

are you sure that women in the west wear make up "to enhance their features" as opposed to "cover them up because of a fear of being a lesser person"


i think you are totally wrong on this point

social pressures only affect those that choose to be affected, hmm yes, some ppl decide to be victims, however that makes them victims none the less.

i plucked a couple at random, and only because the validity of my own was being questioned,

and all i asked specifically was

are these other threads having there right to exist questioned, i would still like an answer to that question actually, and if they weren't questioned, why not,

or rather why was mine?

i beleive the threads were, er....

ufo's in iceland

and something wishing someone a happy valentines

ur...hmp[h....

Actually Jojo, I do not know what all the noise is about,this sounds like a perfectly good topic,both the burka and makeup are means of communicating something, perhaps the same thing but in opposition to each others expression.

I am unsure of what you mean by creating an identity through consumption well masking that which is holy,please expand if you can on this.

"creating an identity through consumption merely masking that which is most holy" I also think this needs to be explained. If the subject were a little narrower and to the point, it would be much easier to discuss.

I think the "creating an identity through consumption merely masking that which is most holy" should be explained in terms that is a little more understandable and direct.

I never questioned the validity of the topic. I just needed clarification as to what you you referring to.
As I said previously, there are no more or less important topics to speak of here.


I wouldn't say I'm totally wrong. I'd say I have a different view of the subject.

When you say that Make-up is the Western version of the Burka; are you saying that the make-up of Western culture is placing the women in a position of servitude to the men?
I just asked my wife if she wore make-up because she's in a position of servitude; She told me that she only wears it to enhance her eyes and lips. Then she told me I was cooking supper tonight for asking such a stupid question.


I think many women wear make-up to hide their perceived imperfections and flaws. Others may wear it because of low self-esteem, and they gain confidence while wearing it.

I can't think of any woman who would wear make-up because they feel oppressed though.

It's really a Yes or No question and my answer is NO.

The validity of the topic being placed in Human Relations is what he was referring to. I removed it out of Human Relations and put it into general discussion where I think it belongs. If I'm wrong or it changes direction or narrows down to a point of discussion that refers to a branch of Philosophy, I'll move it.

Hi Fellows,

The burka and makeup I would think are sexual expressions or messages.The burka is to hide the women's charms[face] and make the statement, not available,diminishing temptation you might say for the male.Makeup I would say is to advertise a women/s charms and perhaps in verious degrees,advertises ones sexuality to a larger community.Yes,I do know to say so is politically incorrect,the obvious sexual connections make it impossiable to ignore.:eek:



Reason is the enemy of faith.
Luther, Martin -

i think its interesting now that this has been entirely reversed (by some females) and we see some muslim women using the burka to define their identity and we see some western women using make up to hide from themselves.

i think the masking of ourselves is an interesting concept which deserves more general discussion. there is lots of evidence to suggest that we now build our identities through our consumption. is this a healthy thing? how else can we build ourselves without buying things....? its interesting that no alternative automatically springs to mind

It hasn't been reversed at all.
People are answering your question in a variety of ways, and turning into a very interesting conversation.
It does interest me though, that this is entirely directed at women, when men do the same thing, using different devices instead of a burka or make-up.

Both men and women will use different "masks" to define themselves as a person, or to enhance their own identities.
Tattoos, coloured contact lenses, piercings, make-up, cool cars, motorcycles, expensive suits, and many other things are ways to simply define the type of personality we have chosen for ourselves.

You can tell (to a certain degree) how confidant a woman is when you see her, simply by the way she wears her make-up. Those who shovel it onto their faces to hide themselves, are usually the ones with lower self-values, and therefore most certainly do fit into the description you used earlier...with make-up being the burka or western culture.
You can also tell the level of confidence a man has (to a certain degree) by the clothes he wears, or the cut of his hair. If you see two men walking down the street, and one is missing a shirt, wearing torn jeans, and has a mohawk...the other is wearing a 3 piece suit and sporting a rolex; you can pretty much guarantee that the guy wearing the suit is more confidant.
you can also pretty much guarantee that they fall into certain archetypical roles according to their sense of fashion in this instance.

The mowhawk, is therefore; the rolex to a punk, using your previous case.
There are many parallels for this discussion, and none of them are more right or wrong than others, since each person has their own personal reasons why they wear make-up or sport a rolex, mowhawk or whatever defining characteristic they have.

I never wear makeup, does that mean I'm self-confident? :eek:
It is true that many people use such things (makeup, money, hairstyle etc) as a confidence booster. Funny how "grown-ups" are so dependant on their safety blankets

You have to be careful with this though as there are so many people who are exceptions to this. For example, my one friend died her hair purple and turquoise just because she liked the color, and now people who don't know her treat her like a punk even though she's the complete opposite...

Like I said...to a certain degree. Your example is very good though.

I believe lots of women, like it or not, are pressured into wearing make-up simply because they "should". The "made-up" eyes, lips, and whatever else are becoming the standard. You see it wherever you go. It's normal for women and, pathetically, children to wear make-up.

Make-up may not have any ties to religion, like the burka, but it is a major part of our culture, or whatever we have here in North America. The rules of make-up may be broken often, and bent much more, but they are still there. The pressures are there, they just aren't as "pressed" as that of the east.

People in the west wear make-up proud, because they have to, or not at all; just as they wear their burkas in the east.

Get the picture of a burka in your mind. Now take away all the religious ties that your mind places upon it and take away most, but not all, of the shame of not having it. What do you have now? You tell me.

Are you suggesting that the women have a certain pride in wearing the burka?

The women that ran the streets in Afghanistan after their gov't was toppled - waving their burkas in the air while the men shaved their beards - certainly did not have any shame in shedding their pride.

I think I may have misunderstood what message you're trying to convey though.