A quote

Daniel 9,9 says that "To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him."

Mark 3,28-30 says; "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

I couldn't find a passage in any version of the bible that supported the claim that there is no forgiveness for our sins, aside from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Aside from the topic of forgiveness; my original point was that if a person was to use the bible as a guide to life, and set aside all of the praying and gospel...they would lead a very fulfilling life based on those teachings, since it would be a life of peace and contentment.

But there is forgiveness for sins so you wouldn't find a passage like that. It just isn't automatic. Jesus believed in eternal condemnation - you'd have to ignore all the verses I just posted to not see it.



The message of Jesus was "repent & be baptized" & "follow me" & "love the Lord you God with all your heart, soul, mind & strength" & "love your neighbor as yourself". These commandments cannot be fulfilled without a complete surrender of yourself to God & others. What you're asking is 'can I live a life of complete surrender to God, without actually surrendering to God?' As long as you are 'god' (in the sense that you are the one who has ultimate authority in your life), God does not hold that position, so how can you bridge that? The teachings of Jesus cannot be followed without surrender to God. You can't love God with all your heart, soul, mind & strength if you don't even acknowledge Him as Lord over your life. You see what I'm saying?


Now, you may be able to do that with Proverbs to a large extent. But not in the teachings of Jesus. Check out Proverbs and see if that is more what you are interested in. I say that even if you have studied them before because they came into a whole new light to me when I realized some of the things they were talking about. For instance, (and to go off topic) my pastor has suggested that maybe Proverbs is the book that we will be judged by because it has such clear 'tools' for living. It also talks about the flow of resources and what kind of behaviors brought that flow toward you and moved them from you. It speaks of wisdom & understanding and the most productive way to live your life. Read Proverbs as an instruction manual the way you were talking about above. I think that is what you are looking for. The teachings of Jesus are about surrendering your life to God, and that is not something you seem to be interested in.

Note: I figured I better clear up the 'judged' word, but I don't want to get off on a tangent. It is our belief that even those who die "in Christ' will face judgment for our live decisions. But it won't be a Heaven or Hell judgment, just an account for how we've led our lives. Please don't go off on this tangent, though. I just didn't want to get the Christians in a tift!

And if God, Jesus, heaven, hell and the whole sh-bang are just a very well written hoax that we've all come to believe over the years...then we'll still end up feeding the worms, but we'll have lived a very enjoyable life for living in the day to day examples that were laid out before us.
Proverbs does speak of wisdom and the most productive way to live your life, yes.
So I can follow those steps, live a productive life, and never step foot in a church. Surrendering your life to God doesn't mean surrendering your free will and good sense, either.
It also appears that there is no evidence to support the notion that forgiveness is not automatic. Death is the penalty we pay for our sins, and that in itself has been set as the standard fare for forgiveness according to the results of Adam and Eve.

If forgiveness is not automatic, why did Jesus have to die on the cross? Surrendering your life is just that, It is when we no longer live for our own purposes and begin living for God's. Salvation is only available that way.

The things we hold on to are so pithy and destructive in comparison to what God wants to give us. Why not just let go and experience the Divine?

Katherine, I see the point you are trying to make here. It simply doesn't work. We have Christians all over the world and surrender their life to God and Jesus but it doesn't work. That's not the end of it. These same Christians will rape, pillage and steal in the name of God. How can anyone surrender their soul to something that has been misunderstood by the masses for so long?

There's a connection between man and God that cannot be broke or separated. If anyone claims to have given their life up for God and his purpose, then it would be proven by example in the way they live and their actions. How can you surrender your life to Christ and commit adultery tomorrow and then show up in church to repent and ask for forgiveness? I'm sorry, but that isn't the way it works. That's not the way Jesus showed us or the example that he provided.

Let's take Joel Osteen. Now there's a man that's dedicated his life to Christ. Why then does he have to live in a home that cost millions? Why is it so out of balance with God's nature?

No need to answer these things as I'm just trying to make a point. Katherine what you should take time to understand is that while you've held this faith of giving your life to Christ and you are saved, yet separate, that doesn't mean that you are to judge how others are to do it. Just because someone doesn't do it like you've done it, does not make them any further or closer to God than yourself.

This is a subject that cannot be argued with blind faith coming from years of pastoral instruction from people who don't know it themselves.

I recommend to anyone that has drawn a line between God and Man to read the Sermon on the Mount and then spend time in meditation and prayer. Open your eyes to that divinity inside. It's still God Katherine, it's just communion with God in the way Jesus had communion with God not in a way man says you are to reach God.

Bottom line here is that you'll never know unless you seek. If you seek answers from your pastor or you seek answers from your friends, you are seeking in the wrong place but your faith will keep you blind to this. That's why there's no arguing with a Christian that believes other than the teachings of Jesus and the Sermon on the Mount.

I know for a fact that the only thing that separates myself from God is myself. Period. I know this because I've spent my lifetime seeking it out and meditating daily. I was raised in a Christian church (broken church), and my inner-voice has always told me to keep searching but don't look far. Those people I know in the churches that have been lead by the same faith you have... Their lives may have improved financially, they may have pulled themselves out of their rut by faith in Jesus however, most of them still don't have a clue as to how to pray or how to meditate and the meaning of balance. They rape, they steal and the go through life sporting a wonderful front but deep inside they are blind and callused to what's really there. We are spirit, not body. How then can one live for the flesh and claim to have given their life to Christ... When Christ himself different.

That's my ramblings for the day!

Forgiveness - Jesus forgave us so that we may forgive our brothers and sisters. Jesus died on the cross - Overcame death in the spirit and walked among us. It was Jesus who said we are one with God and each other.

You are right Justin, the only things that seperate God and me, is myself and my ego.
I keep working on not feeding my ego, and remind myself that all the wonderfull things I own and that other owns does not define myself or them.

The day I can do that, I will be one with God again, like we was ment to be.

I can't find reference to Jesus supporting this. He talked about forgiveness a lot, and died for us so we would be forgiven of our sins and no longer have to make altar sacrifices. He supported the ideas that we do need to follow, or we would not inherit his father's kingdom after the great tribulation, but he never said that if we did not do what he said that we would be sent to a place of eternal damnation.
In Revelations it states that after the great tribulation, that Satan would be cast into a fiery pit for a period of time, and then released to wreak havoc on the earth for a short time before being destroyed forever. If he's to be destroyed forever, then where does everyone in hell go? Since God is a god of mercy, love and forgiveness...I don't think it's going to be him down there torturing lost souls for eternity. That would be kind of hypocritical of him wouldn't it? In fact, I think it would make God out to be a liar...which he detests.
Basically, the concept of God, heaven, hell and Satan are interesting, but there are so many loopholes that can only be filled with faith, that only being a true Christian can you possibly live as a true Christian in the traditional sense.

You do not need to be a Christian to understand what a Christian is, however.
"Christian" is a definition. "Nazi" is also a definition.

Do you understand what being a Nazi is?
No doubt you do...that doesn't (I hope ) mean that you are a real Nazi.

I think your biases are getting in your way of simply reading the Word for what it says. Just a casual reading of Scripture for what it says will reveal everything we're talking about. Not a google, but a meditation and reading.

I think we're at an impass, but I enjoyed talking to you.

I haven't actually Googled anything on this subject yet.
I've got the King James, the Defined King James, New World Translation, American Standard Version, New American Standard, and the Irish Catholic Holy Bible sitting on a shelf by my PC.
I trust reading from the actual books, more than a web page that may have mistakes in it.
I also have a few other Bibles on the bookshelf in my room, as well as a few others in storage that are either damaged, outdated, or redundant copies.
I'm not being biased, I'm actually a very spiritual person...someone whom you may even call Christian...if I were being biased, then I would simply agree with everything you say. Since my personal belief is being set on the back burner for the sake of a good debate, I am being objective in my approach instead.
If you believe we are at an impasse, then it is because you are unwilling to look at the subject objectively, and are merely trying to sway others to think like you do.
If that is the case, then it is unfortunate that you would end the debate based on that, and not on the grounds that we have found either compromise, or a common ground to agree upon.

The OP mentioned that Christ was teaching us kindness, love, concern, and peace. This is what he taught us, so that we could emulate him and live better lives. Thus, this is what it should mean to be Christian.
To be a Catholic, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Muslim, Jehovah Witness, or Jew...is to devote your life to the worship and boundaries set before you by a sect or denomination as a path to follow God in or by their methods.

Jesus taught us how to live at peace with one another, and learn acceptance of other people's values and virtues.
As far as forgiveness is concerned; The only sin that has been mentioned in the bible as being unforgivable by our deaths, is blasphemy without repentance against the Holy Spirit. From this one sin can we never be pardoned.
From Wikipedia

I would like to give my interpretations of these things:

The sword in this referrence to me is the two edged sword seen jutting from his mouth in revelations. It is the sword of truth and it truly is a very painful double edged blade.

ALSO, The man you are now was fathered by the person you were or used to be. This could very well mean to turn you against what you were as a younger and incorrect youth.
Same as above but for women.
Once you have opened your eyes to some very disturbing truths about how ourselves, humanity and we as a species lie to ourselves about so many things including justifying our striving for material gain and possessions for luxury while others die on our doorsteps, it becomes difficult to live with ourselves and the family in our lives who have not yet awakened to these cold harsh 'rip your freakin heart out' realizations.... or revelations as i like to call them.

It is easy to then justify that we are doing these things for them because we love them above all else including... the truth and the way mankind was intended to and truly desires to be... even if we do not fully recognize it in our conscious minds.

I believe this cross is the "shame of our guilt". You must overcome the depression, utter sadness and dispair associated with seeing yourself as this "thing" or "beast" that we have all become and struggle in our blindness to find the truth and to follow our souls true desire for attaining a "higher self".

If you find your old life or "the good life" as many call it then you are lost and following the darker side of your nature. However, if you lose this "good life" of seeking material things and other baser desires... then you are truly on the path to the "higher self".

In my opinion this is what jesus meant when he said "it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter heaven". First off, the "eye of the needle" is a very short gate that camels had to get down on their knees to crawl through when laiden down with packs of goods. So, it first implies great humility which jesus displayed in so many ways. I believe it also implies that worldly possessions CAN (with some cautious exceptions) prevent most people from attaining their "higher selves".

I am not saying that all material things are evil by their nature. It is how we strive for them and what we do with them if we get them that is the root of this particular problem.

Some examples is how i ask myself now "do i really need that new car or can i get by with the older one or a less expensive one?" If i can save money with something less, i can then donate some of the saved money to help feed some starving people. So basically i ask myself, is the new shiny car worth the lives of an entire village to me?

Don't get me wrong, i succumb far too often and am not worthy to preach as if i have achieved my higher self... but at least i see some of the nature of what i am doing and that is a good start. I also do believe that we are entitled to enjoy "some" of the fruits of our labors and "some" of the luxuries it brings. What i am trying to balance is a respectful and modest use of that which helps make life more enjoyable and the need to help others to the best of my human ability to do so.