Don't think I am answering for Martin. I am not. I would say if certainty is your goal than pursue certainty through faith. Religion and science are both paths to truth. Can you imagine when religion was the only science and how hopeless was mankind with that failed hypothosis? The reason religion works is because of the deeper truths that no one can deny: The values of community. No one who believes believes alone. A community is made by those with a common focus, and a common belief. What is truth compared to a working supporting community. What can any devil do against them? You will never find truth or certainty with science. Every answer becomes another question. If you would see an end to questions and the beginning of certainty embrace your faith.

I must say that to me, embracing faith can have negative consequences. It can cause one to percieve bias in the world, and perhaps pass over some unknown understanding. I do agree that values and community are important, but you should know that community is not what everyone wants. Some times people prefer to be alone, and at others with others. I agree that you will not find certainty with science, but I think truth can be found, even if we aren't sure that we found it. Also, sometimes answers are just answers, often times I find myself reaching a limit of not only what answers can I provide, but what questions can I ask. I fear certainty to be honest, as I fear that it will lead down a path of certainty and neglect.

Just because a person can't deny a common truth, it doesnt mean that another person can't.

I hope that you do not believe I am advertising for science or religion. Actually I am not advertising for truth or certainty by any method. What most people go to church for is neither truth nor certainty, but something much more essential in every life, and that is meaning. Religion can only be be bad, or truly evil to the extent that it is certain it has found truth. Certainty makes every form of violence justified. I do not seek certainty for seeing too often its result.

Still, Truth through science does not appeal to me either. It is only as good as it does, and truth without moral reference is criminal. The truth is never an absoulte, so it can never be a goal in itself. It must serve some good purpose to be good. It too must have meaning, and meaning is something we give to science and everything else we perceive. All truth is a form of meaning, but the further it is from human reality, from human need, and human purpose the more evil it means.

The problem is obvious to me in truth, that it can never be complete, but even as less than complete it empowers the unscrupulous, and the immoral. We cannot ever 'know' the 'truth' of reality. We are safer, if less powerful if we know ourselves, and know how badly humans can behave with power divorced from moral reference. But is that not the very people, without morals, who first seek the might of science? Knowledge is virtue said Socrates. We say knowledge is power. Is not virtue the power of a man over his desires, even to know more than he can control?

Justinupitt
Excellent question

"dpmartin, do you think that the truth can be learned? or must one already know it to be certain. I think that if I could learn what the truth was, I could also learn that what I think is the truth, isnt, so I will always be somewhat unsure, unless of course I also know that I know everything there is to know."

The reason for Life must be there therefore there must be Truth. If it were fully revealed in all it's glory would you survive it? What is known as the Faith of Christ is the Mercy of God available to all who call upon the name Jesus. If the Truth is reveal to us in the flesh there is only one Way to find out.

Surly one can not know all, we all learn in part in that which we seek to know. Only the source of Life knows what life ought to be.


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Fido
there is not one thing here that I disagree with (as far as I can tell)

"I hope that you do not believe I am advertising for science or religion. Actually I am not advertising for truth or certainty by any method. What most people go to church for is neither truth nor certainty, but something much more essential in every life, and that is meaning. Religion can only be be bad, or truly evil to the extent that it is certain it has found truth. Certainty makes every form of violence justified. I do not seek certainty for seeing too often its result.
Still, Truth through science does not appeal to me either. It is only as good as it does, and truth without moral reference is criminal. The truth is never an absoulte, so it can never be a goal in itself. It must serve some good purpose to be good. It too must have meaning, and meaning is something we give to science and everything else we perceive. All truth is a form of meaning, but the further it is from human reality, from human need, and human purpose the more evil it means.
The problem is obvious to me in truth, that it can never be complete, but even as less than complete it empowers the unscrupulous, and the immoral. We cannot ever 'know' the 'truth' of reality. We are safer, if less powerful if we know ourselves, and know how badly humans can behave with power divorced from moral reference. But is that not the very people, without morals, who first seek the might of science? Knowledge is virtue said Socrates. We say knowledge is power. Is not virtue the power of a man over his desires, even to know more than he can control?"


But what if the Truth is the Mercy of the Creator to man.

The reason for being alive is the goal of every man, so he must seek why he is alive. Seeking the truth is not always the answer for him. For his own reasons get in the way of knowing the Truth. Therefore he must lie to keep his ways so as not to follow the Way, which is the reason he is alive.
Then shall he know when he is alive, in the day he forfeits his way for the only Way which is Jesus. For man can not know the Way if it is not revealed to him, he can not see that which he hides from for his own reasons. It is just, that man seeks God for if he seeks God he seeks the reason for Life. But if he sees only what he wants he shall not see at all. It is for his reasons does he seek and not for the reason does he seek. Blinding himself with his own wisdom rather than seeking the Mercy of God. And the fear of God's Mercy through Jesus the Christ for his people is wisdom.

This is why man gets angry when he hears truth and cannot hide from it for it reveals to him that he is in a state of shame and helplessness and his anger and rage protects his sense of self righteousness which is truly his reasons that he must maintain to keep his ways. But it is truly the Mercy of God that he would see the Truth. For it is God that is righteous not man, nor dose God expect man to be righteous, otherwise there would be no need for Jesus who is righteous and just, the Mercy of God given to man because man is not righteous or just. But if the man proclaim Jesus as his righteousness and justice, it is then his Faith is to receive the Mercy of God which is his Faith in and through Jesus that justifies him before God.
It's like a chess board where all the pieces that are His He made. All the pieces that are not His He made, and the board and the rules He made. If His seek His mercy they prevail. If they turn from Him, those that are not His prevail. If those that are not His seek His mercy, then they become His.

The religious hold to the message of there version of the Truth for their own reasons as if they are righteous for doing so, thus justifying themselves as righteous before men. But those who do not and appose because they suffer the unrighteousness of the self righteous become righteous for there own reasons. And in this mess those who know they are not righteous nor is there any righteousness in them seek the Mercy of God and are justified before God by His mercy Through His Word (Jesus) and the rest seek justification before man for there own reasons.
All men need justification. In Christ is the justification of man before God by God's given Mercy through Christ to man. Therefore it is God that is the reason that man is justified and in mans faith given His through Christ (the Mercy of God) that is man's reason and is justified.

But those who seek justification before men seek to justify their own reasons whether they us the name of God or not.

The truth kills even when people try to make friends with it. I think people can live without truth that is certain. They can never live with out meaning that is certain.

Fido

It is true that he who lives for his own reasons would be crushed by the Truth. But he who Lives for the Truth shall be set free by the Truth. So, to what value would it be to live a lie? For if it is not the Truth, it must be a lie.

What are you? Some kind of pharasee? If you got a riddle you solve it. All I see is that truth works, and I could give a loose stool where it comes from.

Fido
Easy, no offence intended, it is only my hope that you might value the Truth. Besides it only conversation.

I have heard "I'll bet 20 dollars to a cold dog turd" before when I was in the service but not "give a loose stool", different