The nature of the Almighty

dpmartin,

This is just the kind of science many of us have been looking for.Certainly traditional science is completely impotent when it comes to explaining some of the most pressing questions.I realize this is probabley just an outline,a historical summation,so I will ask you directly to answer my questions.God created the talking snake did he not? My question is,how come since childhood I have not been able to find one.Did the talking snake then evolve into a lizard,and in the process lose his voice box? This is a big big gap in the creationists fossil record.Please clear the air around this confusion in creationist biology.

Another question is,who created the Devil,and if god is omipotent why is there such a struggle between good and evil--evil-d-evil, were on a run here.I for one am greatful for your contibution of tenth century science,modern thinkers are so uppiddy,useing all them big words and all.Oh oh, gott'a go,I hear my rib calling!






Yahoo, for one, filters everything with the word "Je.s.us" in the subject into the sp.am/bu.lk/j.unk folder

For this, there is not something that started God, it is just assumed that God always was, which is not an argument but a statement.

[quote]The Almighty cannot lie for if He speaks it. It will be[/quote]

So there are things God can't do

[quote]" According to science community after the big bang all was like dust. So it is possible that all matter and space where at rest or evenly balanced like as if all the air on earth was the same temperature with even amount of humidity and pressure[/quote]

This is not correct. All was not uniform after the big bang, current theory holds that there were slight perturbations which grew as the universe expanded, which is currently seen in the non-uniform distribution of mass throughout the universe. The initial perturbations resulted from the uneven "surface" of the colliding membranes which resulted in the big bang. No external, sentient, guiding agent was required for anything in the universe to form. It is only by assuming that the universe required sentience that the need for a creator is created. To think of it as something that would otherwise be random if it were not for a directing agent is also not correct, since everything obeys the laws of physics that could not be otherwise for this universe. To require a reason for why the laws are what they are is to create a need for an explanation for something that is not there, it is only manifested inn one's mind.

[quote]Where as, it could be considered, that if under certain conditions of time, energy, space, and matter, there is manifested the presence of life. Which was already there. In other words the presence of Life is always there but not always evident to us, unless certain conditions are met.[/quote]


If this is saying that life, like rock, water, plasma, etc is one possible arrangement of matter that is permitted by the laws of physics, then yes. If it is trying to say that life is some kind of pre-existing essence that uses matter as a conduit to manifest itself in physical space, then this is just another description of the concept of a soul or spirit. Presuming that this exists, then saying that science can't explain it, therefore God does, is not a valid argument.


Smilies, heed my call! :confused: :mad: :p :rolleyes: :cool: :eek:

Dexter78
good to hear from ya.


As far as the big bang theory, it would not take much to be more familiar than I am with it. And the comments made are merely speculation of possibilities in reference to the big bang. But just for the sake of bla bla bla, would not colliding membranes have to be from something also?


As far as laws expressed in mathematics, did the law exist before, as in the truth thereof, or after existence obeyed them?


Dose not life have purpose that is independent of all other things known? Do not all living things act with purpose at all times? Even to rest. Does not life live and give life? Does not life struggle against death to live? And how could there be any reason, or even reasoning without life? The reason is to live and give life. And how could that have happened without the reason being first? It seems to me, that if there is life, there is a reason.



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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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The same could be said of God. This deals with time, which, as far as I know, hasn't yet been fully explained. In our universe we experience the 4th dimension as time in a linear fashion, but this is not necessarily the case when discussing the entirety if existence, both this universe and that multi-dimensional interactions that created it. Concepts like "beginning" and "end" may not apply, and at best it may be said that the entirety only asymptotically approached a "beginning", it's a self contained system. Since the theories are still being worked out, it cannot yet be said how entirety behaves. However, introducing a God solves none of the problems, and in fact creates many more, so if the physical explanations seem unbelievable, the idea of a God is even more so.



Before. The ultimate law is what physicists are searching for. Existence behaves as the law allows, it does not first exist and then follow the law, nor do these laws burgeon into existence with the universe. All possible states of existence are accounted for in this law.



I have a different view of reason vs purpose. Reason, in this sense I equate with explanation, for which there is one whether there exists life to figure it the explanation or not. For example, the explanation, the physics, for how the sun works is there independent of there being life. As for purpose, this is a human concept. Life behaves the only way it can. Life has an explanation of itself, a reason, for why it exists, but not an independent purpose. There is no elevated, ethereal objective that life is ultimately serving. The purpose comes from the person themselves. When people ask "Why I am here?" or some form of this, there is of course a biological explanation, but most are looking for a kind of universal justification and there isn't any. When one assumes something that isn't there, they need something else that isn't there to explain it. People live, laugh, love, hate, enjoy, reason, etc. because that is what they can do. Each person has their own experiences that results in these and other behaviors. And I enjoy that.

Dexter78


This "ultimate law that physicists are searching for", is it the truth? Can it be a lie? And is there anything in existence under this law that can disobey it?

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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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Correction:
"And is there anything in existence under this law that can disobey it?"

I think it would be better said: And is there anything in existence under this law that could not believe this law, and not follow this law?

The law physicists are searching for is a mathematical explanation and understanding of all forms of energy, matter, the universe and the forces that caused it, etc. If successfully derived, tested and proven, then it can not be a lie in the sense that it could be incorrect, but would be a true explanation of things. Anything that can think can choose not to believe such a law is correct, but it will have no affect on it anymore than if I chose to stop believing in gravity would that force suddenly no longer apply to me. However, unlike the concept of a God, there would actually be a body of mathematical work that a person could examine, test, and attempt to prove or disprove. As for following this law, choice is not an issue here because there is no option, nothing has any choice but to act within the confines of what is permitted by this law of physics, nor does this law possess any consciousness that causes it to exert it's will on everything, it is simply the way things are.

Dexter78
So what your telling me and correct me if I am wrong.

This law existed before anything else in existence. If this law or any part of this law can be expressed in the language of mathematic then the law must have been expressed in order for the rest of existence to comply. And can be known by and express from mankind. In order to be, it must be allowed by the law. Nothing is outside this law, this law cannot lie, for if it is the law, it is.
If someone does not believe the law to get a desired result then they get a undesired result which is also expressed in the law. Not only that, ignorance of the law would not be an excuse if there was an undesired result.
Also if there is an ultimate law, life is allowed by law and the conditions for life are also a part of the law. And the law in reference to life is expressed before the rest of existence for the law must have existed in whole before the rest of existence. Also the knowledge of life is in the law. For if it is not a part of the law, it would not be. Therefore the law, which would have to be the truth, rules over all else.
Also, the law existed before all else therefore it is possible that the truth always was. And the law remains always, and the law will always be since it did not require the rest of existence to be in the first place.


As far as will, don't count it out. Why are things not otherwise then they are, and the law maintains order, does it not? Order for what, and why? Why not existence with out the law?


If this seems a little blurry, I apologize, not much sleep, but I wanted to keep this going.


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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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Better editing could make your post much more readable.

I think I have the basic idea of what you're saying, what it basically boils down to is nothing can happen that is in violation of the law of physics, regardless of whether we know these laws or not. Free will, or choice, etc, is a result of the neurochemical interactions in the brain which are made of molecules, which are made of smaller subatomic particles and so on which all follow these laws of physics. Things are not different than they are because the conditions required for an alternative form did not occur, something cannot be other than what it must be. The laws of physics permit order to occur, but ultimately the universe is heading towards disorder and chaos, and the amount of time the universe spends as an organized system will be vanishingly small. The order is not for anything, there is no higher reason why, it is simply one possibility among many. And since it appears that all possible forms eventually occur in an infinite number of universes, it's not surprising that our universe occurred with it's specific set of conditions. If the laws of physics did not permit our form of existence, than it would not occur.

Mr Dexter78


Of corse I would implore you to consider the possibility of the Living God. The Truth can be known and expressed by mankind in all the possible languages such as the language of the heart, music, or the language of the mind mathematics, or logic if you prefer, or the language of the tung. But the language of the Almighty is the Truth, which can be known, and not all of the Truth is expressed in a equation of physics. I would ask you to consider the following.


God The Son, His Word, made manifest in the flesh known as Jesus the Christ who proclaimed God His Father many times. The Word of God is from God, a part of God, and is God. Just as your word, is from you, a part of you, and you are known by the your speech.
His Word is Truth for if He speaks it, it will be. The Almighty cannot lie for if He speaks it. It will be. Through His Word is that which all may know Him and all of creation obeys Him. For the Truth is the Truth no matter what the Truth is. Whether all mankind is aware of it, or not. It is still the Truth.
The Truth always was, always is, and always will be. It always was true that parting of the sea would happen, even before time. It always is true that parting of the sea happened, and it always will be true, forever. If one had foreknowledge of the Truth about the parting of the sea, before the parting of the sea , one could "prophesy", or repeat the Truth about parting of the sea . Thus Moses knowing the Truth via the revelation of the Truth to Moses that the sea was going to part. He was able to demonstrate to the Israelites the Truth was with him when he raised his staff so that the sea would part. Just because something is manifest in matter doesn't mean it was not true before it became apparent to the world, via a witnessable event in matter.
The Truth need not time, to exist. For it always was true that time would exist. The Truth need not energy, to exist. The Truth need not space, to exist. The Truth need not matter, to exist. All four need the Truth in order to exist. But the souls which dwell in the earth needs these things in order to exist, and to come to know the Truth. Though all things of the earth respond to the Truth accordingly, the souls that dwell in the earth, do not. For it is only to the souls of mankind, that it is given to choose not to obey the Word of God.
All things that are, are of the Truth. For if they are, then they are true. One cannot hold all the things that are true, in one's mind. All the collective minds of mankind cannot know all that is true. But of Truth, all things are.
If you think that you would create truth by doing something so that it's true. Think again, for it always was true that you would do that thing. It always was true that you would think to do that thing. it always was true that you would read this, it always was true that you were born into the world to think and do that thing. And you had no control over that. Needless to say it goes farther back then that. The Truth is, and there are a series of events, or responses to execute that which is true, that are all also true.
No matter how you think or believe, living things came about in the earth, it is true, that living things came about in the earth. Thus living things or, animated matter, if you prefer, are the result of Truth.
Thus, Truth prevails as above all. Or is greater then all. For the Truth cannot be created. The Truth is the source of all we can perceive or understand. Other then lies. But it is true that a lie is a lie, and that the lie was told.
If it were to be true, that there is no truth , then that would be the truth, thus Truth exists, and it is impossible that Truth does not exist. And that is the Truth. That which would teach you otherwise, knows this.
If you want to say that there is no Truth in the world, that is an understandable sentiment, but the Truth does not need the world to know the Truth, in order for the Truth to exist. Just because something is perceived as true in the world does not necessarily make it true. Or if the world insists that something is not true, does not necessarily make it not true. In the world, lies are the order of the day. As in, "what can I say to get them to believe me", not, "this is the truth, whether you like it or not".
It is through the Truth the mankind knows God. Knowing that there is a Living God (a Creator, a Maker) is a matter of fact. For it is the fact that is the result of Truth, the existence there of, is the proof, or, that it is true. The experience there of is to know that which is true, a fact, a knowledge of Truth. But the knowledge does not make a Truth, for the Truth was there before the experience, or the knowledge there of.
It is a fact, or true, or the Truth, if one, using certain materials in a certain fashion, and under certain conditions, can generate enough heat within close proximity of what is known as kindling, one can start a fire to keep oneself warm. But not being aware of the fact does not mean that the fact, Truth, dose not exist. It became known by those who experience the fact. Which was not of themselves. Even if the Truth was learned before hand. For that Truth was always, it was merely learned.
The fact experienced. If one experiences a fact, one experiences the Truth. Therefore knowing that the experience is not of ones self, for nothing in one, is of ones self. For everything in one, is the result of Truth. Which behaves accordingly to that which it is, within its experiences. Even an electric motor responds to the experience of electrical energy, according to that which it is made.
All that there is, and all that is given, is by Way of the Truth. For there is no other Way for anything, to be, to have been, or to come to be. All is under the Mastership of the Truth. All other expression is to gain from that which is expressed to. To consume for the lacking, or want. Thus only the followers of the Truth, knowers of the Truth, lovers of the Truth, tell the Truth. In a world that rewards only for it's own gain.
If something is, it is a fact. Therefore all that truly is, is a fact. A result of the Truth. Known by experience. If one experiences a fact, the experience that which is true, they experience the result of Truth. And to embrace the Truth, is to Live. That which is true, is the result of Truth. And Truth is God to anything that is true, a fact.
The Truth is not void, nor can it be. The Truth is not a lie, nor can it be. But it is only mankind that brings lies into a part of creation made good with the Truth.
The Truth is fully exposed to creation, which is of the Truth, and nothing in creation can change the Truth. For creation is the result of Truth.

Living is a fact, a result of the Truth. Experiencing is living, therefore experiencing is of the Truth. For experiencing, is a fact and is true. It is Truth that Lives and gives the experience of living. So that which is the Truth is also Life to that which it has been given the experience of living and to those that are alive. Life to those in the Kingdom of God, is something they have. Those that are not, are experiencing living. Let it be understood that anyone in the Kingdom of God knows that all of God's creation deserves His Judgement, but we have received His Mercy. By repentance from ourselves, to the Son of God.
The Truth cannot be a lie. Thus the Truth is perfect and incorruptible. Though some try to portray it otherwise. It stands forever, no one can change it. Ether you embrace it, turn from it, or lie about it. If you embrace it, you go with it. If you do not embrace it, what you are, remains where it is. If you are seeking The Truth, you are seeking a Living God. For the Truth is God, not all of God, but God none the less. Who knows and repeats the Truth, is another issue. Don't trust me, trust The Truth, The Word of God.



All that there is has the right to believe, and follow the Truth.

The word "existence" could be substituted for truth in much of this post. God is not true because such a being violates what is true.



There are many who have experiences which they interpret as representative of some universal truth received from a higher being and therefore assume that it is. Religious experiences are probably the most common, and can be reproduced in the lab by stimulating the part in the brain that are active in nuns when praying or monks when meditating. There is an explanation for what they are feeling, and it is neurochemical, not God. Also, there are many instances of people "knowing" something that is true, when it isn't. For example,a parent who knows their kid wouldn't use drugs when they are. Or far more unpleasant, when a parent knows their child is alive when they are not. Wanting a God, feeling there is one, that such a being is truth, guides, creates, etc. in no way validates it's existence. The feelings are real, but to make the leap that because the feelings are real, and one believes that God is the reason for them, therefore there is a God, is specious reasoning and can also be used to justify Santa Claus.

If you know God has said something to you and it comes true, then what? And because it has come true you know it's God. For man can speculate that which will come true with his imagination, but man can not make something that is not within his reach, come true, with his imagination.

dpmartin,

What you are saying with this roundabout logic is,man is limited to the physical laws of reality and god is not.So when a miracle occurs,then you know it is god.The problem is,miracles are defined as events occuring outside the limitations of these physical laws.Perhaps you could enlighten us with a few examples of miracles,ones you personally know are god's,for are there any other kinds? :rolleyes:





"Reason is the enemy of faith." Martin Luther :eek:

If I get a fortune cookie that says I'll get a promotion, and then I get a promotion, does it mean the fortune cookie was magic? If I have a song in my head and I turn on the radio and that song is playing does that mean I'm psychic? Of course not, and neither does "knowing" God told you something and it happens mean that there is a God. I have made many predictions to my friends that have come true, as have they to me, does this mean we are all Gods? What has God told you would happen that could not have happened without a God?

Boagie,
Surly you jest. Only a religious leader would require signs and wonders, when the Truth should be sufficient.

Dexter78
Read the book of Daniel, verify that what was told him came to pass. Then we will talk.

This wouldn't be eye witness testimony you are giving Dexter78 for homework would it? Why would this have any crediablity whatsoever,because it is in the bible,which itself has no crediablity.At least this irrationality is going to be consistent within itself.It is only when you try to export it will you run into resistence.



The merciless slaughter of the Midianites

Num. 31:15-18. "15. And Moses said unto them, Have ye
saved all the women alive? 16. Behold, these caused the
children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit
trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there
was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.17. Now
therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every
woman that hath known man by lying with him.18. But all the
women children, that have not known a man by lying with
him, keep alive for yourselves."



"The Devil Made Me Do It!" The talking snake

It appears boagie beat me to the punch in responding, but to echo what he was saying, you can't use Bible to prove the Bible anymore than I can use Lord of the Rings to prove Lord of the Rings. Much of the book of Daniel is about interpreting dreams and visions, all of which must be taken at word, so it verifies nothing. The prophecies in the later chapters are so vague that many events could be forced to fit them. No names or countries are used, only indistinct references such as "The king of the north" or the "Land to the South." Like the quatraines of Nostradamus, this is empty, letting you fill in the blanks, and the same technique many so-called psychics use when they say something like, "I'm sensing someone with a "T" sounds in their name" and the person responds "Oh yes, my grandfathers name was Tom." Or "I'm sensing a fondness for something soft" and the person replies, "yes, he had a favorite sweater." My point is that if you want to believe, you will force the interpretation to fit, you want it to fit, but when viewed objectively it is a very unremarkable prediction. Also, don't mistake self-fullfilling prophecy for prophecy.

A little humor,

As an atheist, you will occasionally meet a non-atheist who wishes to argue against your belief system. If you are interested in discussing the matter, you may want to prepare yourself by learning these simple responses to common anti-atheist arguments.
The Bible says that atheism is wrong.
"The Bible also says some guy's donkey talked."
If you believe in God and are wrong, then it's no big deal, but if you don't believe in God and are wrong, you'll be punished eternally, so it's not a good idea to be an atheist.
"What if you're wrong that God prefers unthinking self-righteous toadies to honest people who try and live a good life?"
Deep down you really believe in God.
"Deep down, you really don't believe that."
You're only saying you're an atheist to rebel against authority.
"And if the Beatles grew long hair to rebel against authority, then they really had no hair -- is that what you're saying?"
You probably are an atheist because you had a bad experience as a child.
"You probably worship God because you hate your real father."
There are no atheists in foxholes.
"Probably because we have less excuses to start wars."
If you don't believe in God, you'll go to Hell!
"If you don't stop believing in God right now, I'll punch you in the face."
Why are you mad at God?
"Because he's supposed to be all good but he doesn't even have the common decency to exist."
Atheists are Satanic.
"Just like theists are agnostic?"
Without God there is no morality.
"Are we talking about the God that ordered Moses to kill babies and asked people to set animals on fire because he liked the smell?" God is perfect, and He couldn't be perfect if He didn't exist, which proves that He exists.
"No, it just proves he isn't perfect."
People who follow Jesus are good, so you should follow Jesus.
"Chemotherapy can cure cancer, so everyone should have chemotherapy."
Jesus was either a liar, a crazy person, or the son of God. He spoke against liars, and his behavior wasn't crazy, so the only remaining possibility is that he was the son of God.
"So you're telling me that if a polite, honest-looking, well-spoken, nicely dressed man walked up to you on the street and introduced himself as the earthly incarnation of God, you'd figure he probably is? Have you considered the possibility that you're the one who is crazy?"
There were eye witnesses that Jesus worked miracles.
"There are eye witnesses that Bigfoot exists, Uri Geller works miracles, and aliens abduct people."
Most people who know about Jesus believe in Him.
"If most people jumped off a bridge..."
I know from personal experience that God exists.
"No he doesn't. He told me so himself."
God wants you to believe in him without rational proof.
"Then he's certainly doing a fine job of not tempting me with evidence."
You say you don't believe that God exists, but the word "God" is meaningless if there is no such thing, so you are admitting that God exists even as you deny his existence.
"That reminds me, I don't believe you owe me $100."
Hitler was an atheist.
"I don't know about Hitler's religion, but I do know that he was heterosexual, so can I assume you're against that, too?"
Einstein believed in God. Do you think you're smarter than Einstein?
"If he believed in God, yes."
The founding fathers intended the United States to be a Christian nation. Atheists aren't welcome.
"Are you sticking with the whole 'slavery' thing, too?"
The universe is so complex that someone must have designed it.
"I don't know -- that sentence was fairly complex but there was obviously not much thought behind it."
Atheists believe in evolution, but if we teach our children evolution in public school they will believe that they are no better than animals and will grow up immoral.
"I've met public school children. Most of them aren't any better than animals."
Evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics.
"No, but God does."
Well, evolution's only a theory.
"So's your old man."
How can you not believe in Jesus Christ when the evidence is overwhelming?
"Well, Jesus's divinity is only a theory."
There's proof that God exists, like the Bible and miracles.
"If your twenty-year-old son still believes in Santa Claus because he read a book about Santa visiting and presents magically appeared on Christmas morning when he was a child, would you praise him for having faith in the face of overwhelming evidence or call him an idiot?"
My parents raised me to believe in God. Are you calling my parents liars?
"Can we talk about the Tooth Fairy for a minute?"
There are so many wonderful things in the world, how can you say there is no God?
"It's really pretty easy: 'There is no god.' See?"
There is so much beauty in the world that only God could have created it.
"My wife's beautiful, and my mother-in-law made her."
If there is no Heaven, then where do you go when you die?
"The same place you were before you were conceived, I assume."
You can't prove God doesn't exist.
"So?"
You don't know everything.
"Do you?"
You can't see air, but you believe in it.
"I can't see ignorance, but I can smell it. Right now, in fact."
You can't see love, but you believe in it.
"And I agree that god, like love, is just a concept."
God made His image appear in this tortilla!
(Eats tortilla)
You call yourself an atheist but you have faith. Everyone has faith in something.
"I have faith that this conversation isn't going anywhere. Bye!"


"The total absence of humor from the Bible is one of the most singular things in all literature" Alfred North Whitehead





http://www.tubearoo.com/articles/83785/Atheist_Kid.html?autoplay=true

Warning!! The language of the believer here is questionable, may offend some atheists.