How does one know God without religion?

@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

"nd it has been evident through out history and even today that mankind can make a religion out of kneeling to a stone. So most certainly religion is not the way."

Why stop there? Why does there have to be a god at all? I see no inclination that there is a god behind the formation of the universe and if there was one then that god is incredibly messed up. Our current universe is pretty much was I would expect if it happened without any sort of "god" getting involved in it. The universe is incredibly chaotic, despite how some will try to claim that it has order.

I fail to see the order, sure there might seem to be some order to it but I really don't see it. Not even the laws are ordered, it is we who have put a face on them to make them appear ordered but they really are not. Don't get me started on the fact that 99.9999% of the universe is completely inhospitable for human life and the space that we actually occupy is even less than that.

If you could zoom all the way out to get the full perspective of the universe we humans would not even be noticeable, not even our solar system would be distinguishable. In other words we humans are insignificant in terms of just how huge the universe really is. So why would we be so central? It would be like if you purchased a foot ball stadium to use as your home but you only use the broom closet on the south wing to live in, that is 3 feet by 3 feet. You never step out of there or use any other part of the stadium. Such a waste to have all that other space if you are only going to use 0.000000000000001% of it.

Krumple
thanks for the reply

Look at it this way, God is eternal and He has chosen to start somewhere. After the beginning, when the universe was nothing but incredibly chaotic, His Spirit moved upon the face of the waters. He chose the waters. For the presence of life to be in what He made. And we are here where living things must have water. And there is plenty of it. And then He spoke, order into the creation, that had no order before He spoke. The inhospitality of the rest of the universe toward the presence of living things might show you that. Because time is required for the fulfillment of anything in the physical.

Not a scientific answer, but certainly not against what science knows to be true.

2 Replies

@dpmartin,

Quote:

Not a scientific answer, but certainly not against what science knows to be true.

Really? I see absolutely nothing scientific in what you say there. It all just seems like a jumbled loosely used wordage. Waters? Really? The best word to use is water? Seriously? No that is probably the worst word to use and it to me points out that the person using the word is misinformed. How could a god who is behind the creation be so misinformed? Yet you refuse to acknowledge that because you invest yourself into it and write it off.

Not to mention that the universe is still chaotic. I see absolutely NO order to it. Sure we try to make it ordered by pulling out behavioral aspects of our reality. However at the subatomic level we have come to discover that what we thought was so ordered is in fact not ordered at all. But once again this is something that you will ignore because it contradicts what you want to believe. You are starting with the cart and forgetting the horse because you want to take the concept of a god as being true without having anything that actually supports that premise then working backwards as an attempt to provide support for the premise. It doesn't work that way and time and time again reality points that out yet you continue to keep trying.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Quote:
Not a scientific answer, but certainly not against what science knows to be true.

Really? I see absolutely nothing scientific in what you say there. It all just seems like a jumbled loosely used wordage. Waters? Really? The best word to use is water? Seriously? No that is probably the worst word to use and it to me points out that the person using the word is misinformed. How could a god who is behind the creation be so misinformed? Yet you refuse to acknowledge that because you invest yourself into it and write it off.

Not to mention that the universe is still chaotic. I see absolutely NO order to it. Sure we try to make it ordered by pulling out behavioral aspects of our reality. However at the subatomic level we have come to discover that what we thought was so ordered is in fact not ordered at all. But once again this is something that you will ignore because it contradicts what you want to believe. You are starting with the cart and forgetting the horse because you want to take the concept of a god as being true without having anything that actually supports that premise then working backwards as an attempt to provide support for the premise. It doesn't work that way and time and time again reality points that out yet you continue to keep trying.

Krumpy

thanks for the reply

Your right, but I did say “Not a scientific answer”

If your basing whether there is a God or not on my writing skills (more like the lack there of) then you will never consider the possibility that there is a Living God. But that still doesn’t prove there is no God. Though maybe not in a skilled fashion I was referring to Genesis and it’s explanation that without the Presence of God in the creation there is no order at all. God is not behind it, He is in it. Or it would be impossible to know the Living God. You can refuse to accept there is a Living God within yourself, but you can’t take Him out of His creation.

But truly I don’t understand what it is you see as so chaotic, considering in the subatomic level there is no order that you can see. But how long has the chaotic subatomic level been chaotic, before it was discovered? Does it stop life from being? Does it stop a man from walking upright? Do you need to know the chaotic subatomic level in order to experience love trust or hope? Mercy righteousness and judgement? Can a man walk uprightly, in honor, and in integrity, and ethically, without knowing one thing about scientific discoveries? If mankind had no interest in scientific discoveries (I am not saying mankind shouldn’t), that which could be valuable in mankind would not change. But if mankind does not value honor, integrity, and ethical actions, then life would suck on the face of the planet, no matter how chaotic the subatomic level is.

I’m not trying anything, just having a conversation, that I enjoy in the free speech thereof.

1 Reply

@dpmartin,

dpmartin wrote:

If your basing whether there is a God or not on my writing skills (more like the lack there of) then you will never consider the possibility that there is a Living God."

Living god? What does that even mean? To me when I hear something like this, I can't help but think it is some mantra to try and sell you on a lemon for a car. You heard this from the used car salesman for religion because it is a buzz concept. But when it comes down to it, it is nonsensical. You will have to explain that in far greater detail because from my current perspective it is just clever word play without any meaning what so ever. It might mean something to you but to me it is just two words jumbled together to attempt to have some impressive meaning but it doesn't at least not for me. So what does it mean?

dpmartin wrote:

You can refuse to accept there is a Living God within yourself, but you can’t take Him out of His creation.

Another meaningless sentence. First you have to actually show that there is even a god within before you can even state that it couldn't be removed. However you can't and all you have is this clever word play again. The fact that you capitalize the word his is an indication that you are more invested in the word play than the actual meaning behind what you are trying to say. You are obviously sold on simple word usage but I am not. First you have to actually show that there is a god within, can you do that?

dpmartin wrote:

Does it stop life from being? Does it stop a man from walking upright? Do you need to know the chaotic subatomic level in order to experience love trust or hope?

Once again, you want to stop at god and not go any further. It is evident in your point here. Sure I don't need to understand the workings of quantum particles to experience the world, however stopping at experiencing the world does not help me to understand the functioning of the world. But that obviously doesn't make any sense to you. You want to stop at love trust or hope and that is all that you want, but for me that is not good enough and I want to know more. But I don't think you want to know more because science always tends to reveal that where a theists tries to claim god is, reveals that god is not there either. You don't like scientific progress because it erases your notion of what you want god to be.

dpmartin wrote:

But if mankind does not value honor, integrity, and ethical actions, then life would suck on the face of the planet, no matter how chaotic the subatomic level is.

Your statement above is almost laughable if not sad. Time and time again the belief in gods is what drives people into mass murder and discrimination with death as the consequence. Need I remind you that belief in the christian god has led to more senseless violence than it has ever prevented. That is a fact and history is blood stained with it but not only that but the bible even points out how christian theists support such actions of their beloved god. They worship a vindictive deity that is willing to smite someone for their ignorance. That is childish absurdity and almost criminal that people respect such a system.

We don't need any belief in any gods to come to neutral or positive cooperative civil relationships. In fact I think that if we were to actually abandon all beliefs in the supernatural it will allow humanity to actually move closer to unity. But these silly childish beliefs in a god actually keep people segregated and victimized for simply existing. Christianity is nothing more than a system developed to make you despise your own nature and make you feel ashamed for existing. It is a pathetic world view and it should be shed so humanity can actually grow up and finally accept reality for what it really is, godless.

1 Reply

@dpmartin,

dpmartin wrote:

How does one know God without religion?

Through deism. Or perhaps through what Aristotle did with the 'unmoved mover'. There is no need for religion in either case to inductively conclude that there is a first being of the kind you call 'God'.

1 Reply

@dpmartin,

dpmartin wrote:

Look at it this way, God is eternal and He has chosen to start somewhere. After the beginning, when the universe was nothing but incredibly chaotic, His Spirit moved upon the face of the waters. He chose the waters. For the presence of life to be in what He made. And we are here where living things must have water. And there is plenty of it. And then He spoke, order into the creation, that had no order before He spoke. The inhospitality of the rest of the universe toward the presence of living things might show you that. Because time is required for the fulfillment of anything in the physical.

How do you know that there is a God? And why do you think that the universe is inhospitable toward the presence of living things? What are the premises to which you draw these conclusions?

If something can be shown, can it be said? Would you be able to point to it and tell me that it is so in a meaningful way?

And please do not make your response poetic. I have no need for metaphors concerning these matters.

3 Replies

@Ding an Sich,

Through education.

In answer to the question: Religions brainwash us to think we can't know God except through the "church." But, the people are "the church."

If you want to know God, study yourself. If you want to know more about God, study yourself more. ...................from The Acquarian gospel.

God is the heart of everyone. How to find that? Educate yourself more.

1 Reply

@Ding an Sich,

Hey Ding take a look at my defenition for God its plain with no nonsense Poetic stuff. Smile

0 Replies

@Krumple,

Krumpy

thanks for the reply

It’s been interesting to say the least, choosing Life and blessing is not against living, and a heck of a lot better then choosing death and cursing.

0 Replies

@Ding an Sich,

Ding an Sich wrote:

dpmartin wrote:

How does one know God without religion?

Through deism. Or perhaps through what Aristotle did with the 'unmoved mover'. There is no need for religion in either case to inductively conclude that there is a first being of the kind you call 'God'.

Ding an Sich
Thanks for the reply

That is true, by the methods you’ve mentioned, and even common sense. But to know that there is a God, a Creating Power. And to Know God the Creating Power are two distinct experiences, would you agree?

1 Reply

@Ding an Sich,

Ding an Sich
thanks for the reply

Ding an Sich wrote:

How do you know that there is a God?

By the trust and affirmation in the Word of God in one's own life lived.

Quote:

And why do you think that the universe is inhospitable toward the presence of living things? What are the premises to which you draw these conclusions?

Truth is, it is not my conclusion, it is a statement relative to the conclusions of the person’s conversation at hand. I don’t give it much thought actually, it’s tough enough living here on the earth. I have no interests of yes or no on whether there is some form of life on another planet of not.

Quote:

If something can be shown, can it be said? Would you be able to point to it and tell me that it is so in a meaningful way?

Without mincing any words, the Gate to the Kingdom of God is at the Cross of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. In the Name of Jesus Christ is the Living God known.

Are there religions that agree with that yes, but there religions that don’t. Are there farmers that agree with that, yes, but there are farmers that don’t. Are there politicians that agree with that, yes, but there politicians that don’t. So on and so forth. The Gospel message is not religious, nor agricultural, nor political. Though there many who would argue otherwise, especially the religious.

To know the Living God is the same for the rich and the poor, the wise or the simple, the upright or the rebellious, the strong or the week. There is no respect of person. That is not to say that those who believe or call themselves “Christians” shouldn’t have, and show respect for others, no matter their station or belief in life.

What is restored at the Cross is the availability of what Adam and Eve had, before they agreed to something other then the Word of God by eating the fruit of the infamous tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Hence no religion required. Only repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, as in, within one’s reach.

But I am sure you have heard all of this before.

But you asked.

It is a personal decision to do this and call upon the name of the Lord. Therefore between the repentant and God. If the relationship is not personal, then how can it be true to the believer thereof? You don’t need religion to prove one follows the Lord Jesus, one needs the Presence of God, the Holy Spirit, that proves one follows Jesus. The approval is God’s approval, not the approval of the religious.

Quote:

And please do not make your response poetic. I have no need for metaphors concerning these matters.

I’m fortunate I can tpye, I mean type, without making to many horrendous mistakes, let alone be some kind of poet.

1 Reply

@Pemerson,

Pemerson wrote:

Through education.

In answer to the question: Religions brainwash us to think we can't know God except through the "church." But, the people are "the church."

If you want to know God, study yourself. If you want to know more about God, study yourself more. ...................from The Acquarian gospel.

God is the heart of everyone. How to find that? Educate yourself more.

What education? Formal education?

How is God "the heart of everyone"? Could you explain this strange metaphor?

1 Reply

@dpmartin,

dpmartin wrote:

Ding an Sich
Thanks for the reply

That is true, by the methods you’ve mentioned, and even common sense. But to know that there is a God, a Creating Power. And to Know God the Creating Power are two distinct experiences, would you agree?

Well what is common sense? How is it that common sense arrives at the same conclusions as Aristotle or Locke did?

Well then surely you do not know the God in the case of God as 'a Creating Power', but only a 'god'. "God the Creating Power" refers (if that) to the Judeo-Christian God.

1 Reply

@dpmartin,

dpmartin wrote:

By the trust and affirmation in the Word of God in one's own life lived.

Well how do you know that the Bible is the word of God? How do you know that it came directly from God?

2 Replies

@Ding an Sich,

Ding an Sich wrote:

Well what is common sense? How is it that common sense arrives at the same conclusions as Aristotle or Locke did?

Ding an Sich
Thanks for the reply

Though yes Aristotle and others are great thinkers, and are respected as such in western culture, but why does knowing that there is a God, or to know God, have to follow their processes to conclusions, or fit the molds they might have presented or argued?

Since there is a Living God then God presents the Way to know God, approved by God, or it is not of God. And how could anything else be trustworthy to know God, unless it be of God Himself?

Quote:

Well then surely you do not know the God in the case of God as 'a Creating Power', but only a 'god'. "God the Creating Power" refers (if that) to the Judeo-Christian God.

If you mean the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God Israel, the God of Jesus Christ that’s the God I know who is the Creator of things. And since He is the Creator of all things the Power would be self explanatory. The only God I know of that declares Himself, “I am”, speaks, and makes His Presence known to men who seek Him for the sake of those who seek Him.

It is your purgative to place a, or agree to a religious tag of," Judeo-Christian God" on that.

1 Reply

@dpmartin,

It is your purgative to place a, or agree to a religious tag of," Judeo-Christian God" on that.

was supposed to be "prerogative "

it’s the computer, it just doesn’t know what I’m thinking, of course then again, if it did know what I’m thinking, it might ruin the computer, like a foul virus that would constantly crash it.

0 Replies

@Ding an Sich,

Ding an Sich
Awesome questions my friend, considering it challenges what seems to usually be assumed or presumed amongst those who proclaim what it says, to be true.

Ding an Sich wrote:

dpmartin wrote:

By the trust and affirmation in the Word of God in one's own life lived.

Well how do you know that the Bible is the word of God?

I am sure you know that many seek justification for themselves and their actions, in the Bible and use it as such, seeing themselves therein. Hence interpretation according to one’s own view or will. And history is full of examples of this when they use the Bible for such things as for example justifying oppressive, and abusive slavery.

Many are seduced by what is in control of, or is the authority in, what they love or trust in that what they love or trust is manipulated to be something other than what it is entrusted to be, or they can love it more then the Truth. The Bible is precious to those who seek what is available by the reading thereof, in the knowledge and understand of the Lord their God. But like anything else it is God who has provided it, and put it in the hearts of those who have preserved it, over the years, to preserved it. Therefore it is God that is to be worshiped, not the Bible.

The Bible demonstrates, or documents, that God is justified to be with us, when He chooses to do so. And the Bible is a documentation of those God has chosen to be Present with, in the experiences of their lives lived, and documented.

I can not achieve my own salvation, or maybe better said the availability of my own salvation, from that which would separate me from my God, I cannot over come that. But through Jesus Christ who came from God can, and did. Which allows me the opportunity to only work out my salvation but receive the fulfillment therein, in God’s agreement to mankind through and in what is fulfilled to His satisfaction in Jesus Christ verified by His Resurrection witnessed by those He chose, and entrusted to see the fulfillment thereof.

But to answer your question, it is that what is experienced by those the Lord God has chosen to be with, do I know or it is affirmed, or even edified, that I , in what ever proportions in my own small life, am experiencing the same.

When reading the Bible I have noticed that some look to the wrong, or find wrong, in what God’s People do, and then there are some who look to what the Lord God says and does.

Quote:

How do you know that it came directly from God?

give me some time on that.

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@Ding an Sich,

Ding an Sich wrote:

How do you know that it came directly from God?

If it’s given to you to discern, or see, that which is of God, then it’s of God.
Sometime some questions toward a man can be answer by the man, but sometime questions toward God can only answered by God.

For example, and yes it is of the bible. When Joseph son of Jacob went from beloved son of his father to resented brother of his brothers, to be left for dead in a ditch. To sold into slavery then entrusted manager of a prosperous man’s household. To falsely accused and imprisoned, to entrusted manager of all of the Pharaoh’s kingdom in respect to the issue of the need for the survival and feeding of Pharaoh’s subjects.

How was it that Pharaoh recognized that this guy Joseph, who came from a prison to his court, supreme in the land of Egypt. Was not only the one who spoke the truth in the matter in question, but also should head up the solution? Egypt was not a worshiper or at the least a known worshiper of the God of Abraham at that time. But Pharaoh and his consolers present, could recognize the Spirit of Truth. And it was well with them when they did.

Or the revelation to Peter that Jesus is the Son of God.

It is by the power of the Holy Spirit that one knows that the Scriptures are of God, or that Jesus is the Son of God.

1 Reply

@Ding an Sich,

Ding an Sich wrote:

Pemerson wrote:

Through education.

In answer to the question: Religions brainwash us to think we can't know God except through the "church." But, the people are "the church."

If you want to know God, study yourself. If you want to know more about God, study yourself more. ...................from The Acquarian gospel.

God is the heart of everyone. How to find that? Educate yourself more.

What education? Formal education?

How is God "the heart of everyone"? Could you explain this strange metaphor?

Better: God is inthe heart of everyone.

When one of us is at the bottom of their life, you could say they have "lost their mind." But, no, it's that their mind has dropped into their heart. They then speak and live, from the heart. Have you never seen or listened to such a person?

Education? I wouldn't even try to guess whether people need a formal education but I would say "not everybody." It's whether they think they are then "educated." Experience comes next.

1 Reply

@dpmartin,

So the only way you know that the Bible is the word of God comes from the Holy Spirit? But, if I may be so bold, is not the Holy Spirit, God? So in this case you are saying that God gave you this knowledge? Is this not begging the question precisely because I asked you to prove that God exists, and yet you are assuming that, well, God exists? You do realize that is fallacious correct?

This is of course assuming that you think that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father are all three distinct entities and yet identical (which might I add makes no sense whatsoever. If two, three, four, or n amount of things are identical to each other, then there is really only one thing).

So at this juncture you have to either A) Come up with a new argument as to how you know the Bible is the Word of God B) Ditch the Trinity or C) Some other recourse of action that requires something nonsensical (or perhaps not-so nonsensical).

Good day.

1 Reply

How does one know God without religion?

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