Why is it necessary that others believe in a god?

@chad3006,

I think it's necessary for us to understand why people choose to believe or not believe in a God, hence the various threads on the subject.

For a person who believes in a religion, it may be important for others to believe in God so as they don't burn in hell (for example). So saving your fellow human being from eternal damnation my be a reason why theists wish to convince atheists/agnostics of God.

I think it's important for us to understand each others view, and go from there.

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@chad3006,

chad3006;102846 wrote:

After seeing numerous threads regarding proof of creation, proof of God, etc. To me it begs these questions:

Why is it necessary that others believe in a god?
Why would one set out to prove a god's existence?

Hell, I can't even get anyone to believe that Milton Friedman's economic theories are bunk and there is actually some real evidence for that case.

I'll tell you up front I do believe in a "god" if you could call it that, but I also believe in evolution and that the earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old. I don't believe The Bible is to be taken literally and I think many parts of it are downright wrong. I don't really care, nor do I think it is necessary that others believe the way I do on the subject. I do however, think that discussions of religion/theology are interesting and they have their place in a philosophy forum.

First, there is no proof of God, but much that can be confused with evidence... And it is not about God... All forms, which are all forms of relationship as well- require unity, a common trust and belief... Sometimes people wear a certain uniform, but mostly, people demand a certain uniformity of behavior and belief, simply and some times publicly stated... if you go to a ball game you may stand and place you hand on your wallet and say the pledge of allegience, and even if you know it is bunk, still, if you know what is good for you, you better stand and you better say it...Believers look at doubt as poison, but the poison for humanity is our willingness to believe because the belief often demands a sacrifice, and that is not strange in itself because all forms demand their sacrifice... The danger comes from the fact that dying forms take lives... We all belong to our forms in the expectation that they will guard us, and give us life anew; but dying forms, and failed forms like religion simply take life and give nothing in return... Only when people abandon their faith in the old form can they be for a moment free...

1 Reply

@Fido,

chad3006;102846 wrote:

Why is it necessary that others believe in a god?

It isn't.

God is just one way of approaching the subject in language. Ultimately, God or Tao or whatever term we use is beyond the scope of language. This permeates all human spirituality. The most ancient men who painted Lascaux and similar caves made those paintings for the experience of a ritual. Religion/spirituality is an experiential thing.

People can come out of the same art exhibit and say many different and apparently contradictory things about the exhibit. And they should, they should share their language about the exhibit to help with their reflections - next time they go to the exhibit, they will probably get more out of the experience having heard different reactions and reflected. God is much the same.

chad3006;102846 wrote:

Why would one set out to prove a god's existence?

Because they have lost track of serious spiritual aims.

God cannot be proven. God, otherness, must be experienced. We might make a case that God is more or less likely (as compared to what, beats me), but that's all beside the point. For some, I guess the endeavor may be part of their internal struggle with the experience of God, and that's fine. But when we set out to prove conclusively, for the edification of all people, so that no one can deny.... sounds like a waste of time. Pointing people in the right direction, offering a hand when you can, that seems more sensible. After all, either a person is going to honestly investigate for themselves, or they wont. You can't force anyone to admit they have a nose, no matter how obvious their nose might be.

chad3006;102846 wrote:

Hell, I can't even get anyone to believe that Milton Friedman's economic theories are bunk and there is actually some real evidence for that case.

I believe you. Even though I like Friedman, I believe you.

0 Replies

@chad3006,

chad3006;102846 wrote:

After seeing numerous threads regarding proof of creation, proof of God, etc. To me it begs these questions:

Why is it necessary that others believe in a god?
Why would one set out to prove a god's existence?

Hell, I can't even get anyone to believe that Milton Friedman's economic theories are bunk and there is actually some real evidence for that case.

I'll tell you up front I do believe in a "god" if you could call it that, but I also believe in evolution and that the earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old. I don't believe The Bible is to be taken literally and I think many parts of it are downright wrong. I don't really care, nor do I think it is necessary that others believe the way I do on the subject. I do however, think that discussions of religion/theology are interesting and they have their place in a philosophy forum.

You did not say "necessary for what?". Necessary for you to believe? I don't suppose so. But for some, the answer is, yes. At least in the sense that if gives them support in their own belief. And, I think that some think it is necessary for those who do not beieve to believe for them to be better off both in this world and in a next world.

One might try to prove God's existence for a number of different reasons. 1. To establish one's own belief in God. 2. To persuade others of the existence of God. To conform with the tenets of one's own religion.

By the way, are you sure that you want to say that questions 1. and 2. are begged? Don't you rather mean that those question are raised? "Begging the question" has a very specific meaning. It means, "supposing what requres proof".

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@chad3006,

It is not. The "question of god" is though a question of ultimate significance so it is natural people wish to share their views.

1 Reply

@prothero,

chad3006;102846 wrote:

Why is it necessary that others believe in a god?
Why would one set out to prove a god's existence?
.

believe in "A" god? Is there more then one?

Why would one not? Why do people try to prove god does not exist?

1 Reply

@Unconqured,

Unconqured;103403 wrote:

believe in "A" god? Is there more then one?

Why would one not? Why do people try to prove god does not exist?

There are lots of gods, and only one God; but try to get a handle on him and you will find him much the eel....

1 Reply

@chad3006,

chad3006;102846 wrote:

Why is it necessary that others believe in a god?

Believing in "a god" is extremely destructive both for a person and society.
Believing in the unique God Creator of the Universe makes possible to know absolute good and absolute bad, thus allowing peace and understanding among people. Under relativism, everybody fight against everybody all the time.

chad3006;102846 wrote:

Why would one set out to prove a god's existence?

The motives can be diverse:
1) To show how one is clever
2) To convert others to his religion and thus make his own existence more safe (by decreasing the number of opponents)
3) In case of a religious leader - increasing his power by submitting more people.
4) To make a "logical sport" by clashing with seasoned opponents
5) In extremely rare cases - out of love to one's neighbor - to set him free from the darkness of the godless existence.

chad3006;102846 wrote:

Hell, I can't even get anyone to believe that Milton Friedman's economic theories are bunk and there is actually some real evidence for that case.

The mere fact of unquenchable discussions on God, both on the part of believers and non-believers, is an overwhelming evidence that it is not buck. If people keep being involved in discussing it throughout their history, there must be something real behind it.

1 Reply

@Fido,

Fido;103409 wrote:

There are lots of gods, and only one God; but try to get a handle on him and you will find him much the eel....

Fido, try to help me understand there are multiple of one "singular". Is your stance monotheism or polytheism?

Grasp divine i would never try to, i would be running down from 1 to 0 id never get there, probably end up at 2 if anything.

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@Shlomo,

Quote:

Shlomo;103415 wrote:
Believing in "a god" is extremely destructive both for a person and society.
Believing in the unique God Creator of the Universe makes possible to know absolute good and absolute bad, thus allowing peace and understanding among people. Under relativism, everybody fight against everybody all the time.

Perhaps in this day and age, it might be seen as destructive, as it was, many Gods make many sacrifices, and the society can grow poor...But religion is breaking the world too, and all the petty gods we bow down before, our cars, our televisions, or shiney magazines... We bow down before power and wealth like a kid before a fire cracker, because it is fast, hot, dangerous, and loud... God is life too, and all of the above, and having everthing is like having the best of many lives rolled into one, and all lived at once...It is too bad that to have our petty gods we must deprive others of theirs, and leave them only insecurity...

In its time and place spiritualism, and animism were scientific in their implications because each gave mankind something to think about and showed that he was thinking... That is what we are: Thinking Man...And what is it to expect logic from God when we know of nothing well enough to presume a logic of God???...

Quote:

We have our gods whittled down to one, or two if you count the beast...And it would not matter, and could be gone tomorrow if people would reject the mythic conception of reality, and realize that all they think of their god was given them by legend, word of mouth, and conjecture... To have faith in God we must have faith in man... A great faith in The God requires a greater faith in many men... Instead of trying to realize God with faith, or color him with reason, Be God, and do as you presume a good God would do if working through the agency of your hands....Think before you act and not out of emotion, because good, unlike God, can often be seen as reasonable...
The motives can be diverse:
1) To show how one is clever
2) To convert others to his religion and thus make his own existence more safe (by decreasing the number of opponents)
3) In case of a religious leader - increasing his power by submitting more people.
4) To make a "logical sport" by clashing with seasoned opponents
5) In extremely rare cases - out of love to one's neighbor - to set him free from the darkness of the godless existence.

What God allows man to do is win an argument with force which logic could not justify....When people accept their religion as the moral truth, or as the heart and soul of morality, they can then be turned together to the defense of their religion...Then it is only a question of violence where number usually tell... If we were talking about Islam, they do their best by way of a legal fiction of equality, to accept and accomodate other people of the book...But if their Christian population were left out of the picture, and the whole of Islam could be turned against the west, this little change of mind would shake the world... Too many of them have their petty gods too...They want the good life while rejecting an eternal life....

Quote:
The mere fact of unquenchable discussions on God, both on the part of believers and non-believers, is an overwhelming evidence that it is not buck. If people keep being involved in discussing it throughout their history, there must be something real behind it.

This is a big presumption on the facts... A more likely explanation for us thinking of God, is that we think, and because we think we have had God since we first thought, which is the fact that made us what we are... To be able to consider the spirit of an object apart from an object is thought...Our conception of gods has become of God, and this is the direction of alll our inquiries... We organize as thought makes possible, and we seek a logic in our conceptions, and an underlying unity... Physics would not be possible unless we could conceive and classify, and neither would God... The actual force of God cannot be calculated, so physics rates God as zero...At the moral extreme, other rate God as the only reality... The rest of us must deal with the people of God more than God, because they believe because they believe because they believe...There is no reasoning with them...Try not to tick 'em off...

---------- Post added 11-14-2009 at 11:10 AM ----------

Unconqured;103428 wrote:

Fido, try to help me understand there are multiple of one "singular". Is your stance monotheism or polytheism?

Grasp divine i would never try to, i would be running down from 1 to 0 id never get there, probably end up at 2 if anything.

Reason gives us one God, but the old gods still hang on... We still say wish and luck as the names of gods, and say the names of four of them with the days of the week... Their symbols and dates we have taken as our own... How did Lent, Length, an Anglos-Saxon word become the Latin Catholic holy days???There is not a lot of difference between gods and God but magnitude... The old testament God was a bad ass, but is rather like the gods of myth in his way...He is small, capricious, toys with men's lives, and is easy to relate to since he is us writ large...

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@chad3006,

If others do not believe in God, they will murder you and take everything you have
- so long as they can get away with it.

In response to this the atheist will say 'no I won't that's just not a nice thing to do.'

To that I say, 'you have not fully examined the reasons WHY you think that is not nice.'

2 Replies

@Poseidon,

Poseidon;103523 wrote:

If others do not believe in God, they will murder you and take everything you have
- so long as they can get away with it.

In response to this the atheist will say 'no I won't that's just not a nice thing to do.'

To that I say, 'you have not fully examined the reasons WHY you think that is not nice.'

If people believe in God they will murder you and take everything you have, and give God the credit, and take none of the blame...

Stupid thought, as God in this day and age is, inevitably leads to outrages against the soul and life of this earth....If people said, no matter what my primitive, childish psyche desires- so I will not face death and eternity with fear, and alone -does not justify any injury to another, or to the resources the future may need, then God would be harmless enough....

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@chad3006,

chad3006;102846 wrote:

After seeing numerous threads regarding proof of creation, proof of God, etc. To me it begs these questions:

Why is it necessary that others believe in a god?

It's not.

chad3006;102846 wrote:

Why would one set out to prove a god's existence?

To convince others.

chad3006;102846 wrote:

I do however, think that discussions of religion/theology are interesting and they have their place in a philosophy forum.

This.

Fido;102940 wrote:

First, there is no proof of God, but much that can be confused with evidence...

The ontological argument isn't a proof? It may be fallacious but it's still a proof.

2 Replies

@leafy,

leafy;103529 wrote:

It's not.

To convince others.

This.

The ontological argument isn't a proof? It may be fallacious but it's still a proof.

"Proof" is ambiguous. It can be a "success" term (like "win") or a "process" term (like "run").

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@chad3006,

chad3006;102846 Why is it necessary that others believe in a god? Why would one set out to prove a god's existence? [/QUOTE wrote:

Why is it necessary that others belive in a god?

Necessity; something necessary or essential.

To each their own.

As this question does not ask why is it my necessity, I presume you are asking why must you convince others, why must other be taught.
Why must my believing in God need company? (to put it but softly)
Why must my God be anothers same God?
It could be as simple as 'self same'.
We dont want others to be without what we have, or we do want others to see what they dont have.
We need to not be alone.
But surely when you believ in God your loneliness is soothed, so why is there still the necessity to expose my God to your self?
It is either the my 'good news' or it is your 'bad news'.
There is something about our own belief being strengthened validified by only ever some one elses agreement acceptance access accessory accession.
We find it hard to prove ourselves to just ourselves, we find it hard to accept ourselves on the basis of self varification. We need someone else to at least be with us.
God is nothing but proof but still God on Its own could not prove Its self.
That is why God needs us, to prove to Its self.
And we when good with God sharing caring we want to lift another to self same level.
God is meant to be shared just like everything else, but you need to receive first in order to share.
Else how do we know, but by another guidance?
We prove ourselves through others eyes.
We need agreement.
And for all Gods indications, God rarely communicates agreement with us, that is left up to us.

Why would one set out to prove a gods existence?
Because you said 'a god' means that it has particularity, it has doctrine it has religion.
Which is as said, to spread the 'good news' or to prove others bad news.
The latter is the difference we also 'seem' to need so as to convince ourself of right, someone else needs to be wrong.
We equate like that sadly.

Why would you need another to know your God but for them to know you better.
God is particular to each in this way, it illuminates the self.
Any other reason is judgement of both self and all.
If you are the former you know there is only one judge and you aren't it.

---------- Post added 11-15-2009 at 01:29 AM ----------

Anyone who says you do not have God are less likely to have God themselves.

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@leafy,

leafy;103529 wrote:

It's not.

To convince others.

This.

The ontological argument isn't a proof? It may be fallacious but it's still a proof.

No... Proof is proof... Arguments, bringing reason to bear carries a thought from the known to the likely...Which one then tries to prove with experiment, or from objective facts... As always, gigo...Garbage in, garbage out...Logic is ofen no beterrs pemise...

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@Poseidon,

Poseidon;103523 wrote:

If others do not believe in God, they will murder you and take everything you have
- so long as they can get away with it.

Two words: The Crusade. :whistling:

1 Reply

@Alexandergreat3,

Anyway, I would not say it is necessary that others believe in God. God does not need all. He needs the best.

1 Reply

@chad3006,

chad3006;102846 wrote:

After seeing numerous threads regarding proof of creation, proof of God, etc. To me it begs these questions:

Why is it necessary that others believe in a god?
Why would one set out to prove a god's existence?

Hell, I can't even get anyone to believe that Milton Friedman's economic theories are bunk and there is actually some real evidence for that case.

I'll tell you up front I do believe in a "god" if you could call it that, but I also believe in evolution and that the earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old. I don't believe The Bible is to be taken literally and I think many parts of it are downright wrong. I don't really care, nor do I think it is necessary that others believe the way I do on the subject. I do however, think that discussions of religion/theology are interesting and they have their place in a philosophy forum.

My husband uses the phrase: Schroedinger's God. There is a box. We will only be able to open the box at the time of our death. Inside the box are dilithium crystals (for Star Trek fans). If the dilithium crystals have discombobulated in a time equivalent to their atomic half-life at the time of our death, God (and the afterlife) will be inside the box when we open it. But if they do not discombobulate thus, then when we die and open the box, there will be no God, no afterlife.

We have absolutely NO way of knowing what we will find inside the box until we open it -- at the time of our death. Still, we choose to spend a great deal of our lifetimes standing around the box, hypothesizing, and trying to convince others of the correctness of our various theories.

Maybe I think there'll be a God inside, maybe you do or do not -- but what's the point of either of us wasting time trying to convince the other of the correctness, or incorrectness, of that which neither of us can possibly know?

rebecca

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Why is it necessary that others believe in a god?

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