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Where should the USSC look for answers?

 
 
Scrat
 
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 02:22 pm
Courting International Law <- Link
By Sandy Schulz -- 11/04/2003

Lost in the hoopla over the Supreme Court's decisions last term on affirmative action and gay rights is the development of a disturbing new legal trend, one hinted at by Justice Sandra Day O'Connor in a speech last week.

Increasingly, it seems, the Court is relying on international law and opinion as the basis for domestic legal decisions. For an institution that puts so much stock in precedence, this move is, well, unprecedented. Worse, it spells potential trouble down the road.

In several of its highest-profile cases, the Court looked for guidance from, among other bodies, the European Council for Human Rights and the United Nations. For the first time, these authorities are being granted as much or more weight as American laws, or even the Constitution, in the Court's decisions. This represents a serious abuse of the Supreme Court's judicial review responsibility, as well as its role as the ultimate arbiter in our legal system.

Writing the Court's majority opinion in the case that overturned Texas's controversial sodomy law, Justice Anthony Kennedy justified his decision partly on the need to conform to enlightened opinion abroad. Homosexual activity "has been accepted as an integral part of human freedom in many other countries," he wrote. "There has been no showing that in this country the governmental interest in circumscribing personal choice is somehow more legitimate or urgent."

Justices Stephen Breyer and Ruth Bader Ginsburg made similar arguments in the decision that upheld affirmative action at the University of Michigan Law School. The justices went so far as to cite the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. Given the fact that for nearly a quarter century, the U.S. Senate has refused to ratify that specious treaty, one wonders why the Court would suggest that Americans should abide by its strictures.

Ginsburg provided insight into this troubling turn of events at a recent speech to the American Constitution Society. "Our 'island' or Lone Ranger mentality is beginning to change," she said. Ginsburg congratulated the Court on being "more open to comparative and international law perspectives."

There is a big difference between being open to new ideas and perspectives -- a necessary qualification for any jurist -- and a willingness to disregard established American law in order to impose those ideas on the public.

Not that I necessarily disagree with the outcomes of some of these decisions; there's no good justification for sodomy laws, after all, and a case arguably can be made for limited affirmative action. Moreover, it's perfectly legitimate for international opinion to inform the laws Congress and the state legislatures pass.

The question is how society arrives at those decisions. Shouldn't they come about through our established democratic process, with elected legislators answerable to the public making laws which are subject to a Constitutional scrubbing?

The problem comes when justices answerable to no one decide they don't like those laws -- not because they offend the Constitution, or because they conflict with other laws, but because they offend the justices' own personal sensibilities (or those of our European cousins). Then they decree solutions they think preferable.

That's problematic enough. What makes this latest trend worse is that, by citing international law as judicial precedent, the Court is hinting that our laws and Constitution may no longer be the supreme law of the land.

The hazards are manifest. Subverting democracy in this way potentially places American citizens under the authority of lawmakers, courts, and bureaucrats anywhere in the world.

Two hundred thirty years ago, we fought a revolution so that Americans wouldn't be governed from Europe. It's high time the High Court was reminded of that bit of American history.

Sandy Schulz lives in Washington, DC.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 4,946 • Replies: 64
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 02:28 pm
The answers are in the US Constitution and its amendments.

Catchy poll, by the way.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 02:34 pm
roger- Problem is, that apparently more and more, the powers-that-be are giving less and less credence to the Constition.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 03:35 pm
roger wrote:
The answers are in the US Constitution and its amendments.

I agree. What do we do about the fact that they are looking elsewhere? My fear is that so few Americans get, much less care about, this stuff that it's simply too late for our system of government. I fear that it may be all but inevitable that our Constitutionally-based republic will eventually die the death of a thousand cuts; not from any one major blow, but from an increasing number of small insults to the core of what this country was meant to be.

This stuff isn't rocket science; anyone can understand that the USSC is only supposed to consult the Constitution in its rulings. That SC Justices choose to ignore that clear mandate leaves me speechless. I simply don't know how to react.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 04:03 pm
For the other side of the issue:

LINK!
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 04:08 pm
Changes
Quote:
the Court is hinting that our laws and Constitution may no longer be the supreme law of the land.


Amerika is fairly behind when it comes to social change.

The Death Penalty
Universal Health Care
Same Sex Marriage
Drug Laws
Family Leave
Child Care
Labor Laws

Maybe "The times they are a chagnin'." Perhaps some changes are for the better?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 04:32 pm
Re: Changes
pistoff wrote:
Quote:
the Court is hinting that our laws and Constitution may no longer be the supreme law of the land.


Amerika is fairly behind when it comes to social change.

The Death Penalty
Universal Health Care
Same Sex Marriage
Drug Laws
Family Leave
Child Care
Labor Laws

Maybe "The times they are a chagnin'." Perhaps some changes are for the better?




AMEN!
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 05:11 pm
Quote:
The Death Penalty
Universal Health Care
Same Sex Marriage
Drug Laws
Family Leave
Child Care
Labor Laws


Regarding this, there is provision for amending the constitution. I know of none allowing it to be disregarded.

Joe, I am familiar with the other viewpoint. I suspect that viewpoint is what prompted Scrat to pose the question.
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pueo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 05:21 pm
interesting topic, unfortunately, the poll question has me stumped. will be back when i decide which balloon animal is my favorite.

damn you scrat for this most difficult question.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 05:38 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
For the other side of the issue:
LINK!

Joe - The question isn't whether or not someone can come up with arguments for the practice, the question is whether the practice is allowed by the Constitution and the rules by which the USSC is required to operate.

There are lots of things for which one can make a compelling argument that are unconstitutional. (Sadly, many of them are currently the law of the land, but those merely constitute more cuts upon the body politic.)
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 05:38 pm
When judges go beyond a reasonable reading of the constitutional document they undermine the very source of our law and the sole guarantor of civil rights in our society by engaging in precisely the kind of abuse that the written Constitution was designed to prevent. In essence, they choose to place themselves, as judges, above the law.
and on the other hand (left hand I assume)
The Constitution is a remarkable document and the very embodiment of the great principles upon which our nation was founded. However, not all these principles are set out in their fullness, nor are they written down with today's world in mind. The Justices of the Supreme Court are the bridge between the lofty vision of the Framers and its application in the modern world.
I don't see any really clear answer to this question of strict constructionalists vs loose constructionalists.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 05:50 pm
Scrat wrote:
The question isn't whether or not someone can come up with arguments for the practice, the question is whether the practice is allowed by the Constitution and the rules by which the USSC is required to operate.


The Constitution itself is mute on how the USSC is supposed to operate and what they can reference. Traditionally they have relied on the words of the Constitution itself, the discussions that took place when the relevant section was debated/passed, prior opinons and the actions of the Congress since it was passed.

International law CAN fall into that last category. If the US is a signatory to the law/agreement/treaty/etc. then it is an indication of Congressional intent (since the Congress has to ratify all treaties, etc..).
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 06:53 pm
dyslexia wrote:
When judges go beyond a reasonable reading of the constitutional document they undermine the very source of our law and the sole guarantor of civil rights in our society by engaging in precisely the kind of abuse that the written Constitution was designed to prevent. In essence, they choose to place themselves, as judges, above the law.
and on the other hand (left hand I assume)
The Constitution is a remarkable document and the very embodiment of the great principles upon which our nation was founded. However, not all these principles are set out in their fullness, nor are they written down with today's world in mind. The Justices of the Supreme Court are the bridge between the lofty vision of the Framers and its application in the modern world.
I don't see any really clear answer to this question of strict constructionalists vs loose constructionalists.

I must give you kudos on doing a remarkable job of seeing this issue from both sides, seemingly without any personal bias. Seriously, I'm impressed. I might take issue with one of the viewpoints you described, but I'll save that for another opportunity. For one, my viewpoint ought to be pretty well known on this, and for another, I just really wanted to tip my hat to you for your excellent comments, and don't want to muddy the waters with a "however..." Cool
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 08:10 pm
Looking to the rest of the world to reach a jurisprudential decision is a far cry from foreign governance.

The US does not exist in a vacuum. It is one of hundreds of countries on the globe, and it actively goes about instilling its culture, values and will upon the international community (e.g. Iraq) of the globe. Why, then, shouldn't it merely consider international law, culture, values and opinion when making a decision on a constitutionally vague and obfuscated case?

Or is the US above deigning to even consider how the rest of the world opines?
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 10:07 pm
There's a flavor of "the UN has taken over our national parks" in that Schulz article...

Who is Sandy Schulz, anyway? I'm with the article Joe links to.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 10:28 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
The US does not exist in a vacuum.

True, but the USSC is supposed to. The ONLY thing they are supposed to consider is whether or not a law or practice brought before them for review is allowed by the Constitution. Things like public opinion, current social norms, desired outcomes or what standards other nations might be setting should simply never enter their minds when considering a case before them. It is the job of other men and women to consider those things. A US Supreme Court Justice has only one thing he or she should consider: does the United States Constitution allow the law or practice brought before the court. Period. Taking anything else into consideration is to devalue the constitution as the intended basis for their rulings.
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2003 11:25 pm
So, upon what do the justices draw their conclusions if a case is constitutionally neutral or vague, and there aren't any precedents to base their decisions? That was the situation in the two cases cited by your article.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2003 12:22 am
If a case is constitutionally neutral, I would suppose fishin's answer would apply. Otherwise, the USSC must rely on the constitution, though I know of no remedy if they do not.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2003 09:46 am
Scrat wrote:

Joe - The question isn't whether or not someone can come up with arguments for the practice, the question is whether the practice is allowed by the Constitution and the rules by which the USSC is required to operate.

So, in other words, you don't care if there's an argument for the practice, you just care if there's an argument against it. I hope you were being intentionally funny, Scrat.

As for the rest of your remarks: let's talk after you learn the meaning of stare decisis.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2003 10:05 am
And now, Scrat, back to the real world...
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