There is no such thing as disease

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All of this talk about exuberance, health and vitality may seem quite beside the point to many of you. It may seem instead that the world is filled with unhappiness and disease.

I admit that this certainly seems to be the case. It may also strike you, my readers, as quite shocking when I tell you that there is no such thing, basically, as disease. There are instead only processes. What you think of as disease is instead the result of an exaggeration or overextension of perfectly normal body processes. You are not attacked by viruses, for instance, for all kinds of viruses exist normally in the body. There are no killer viruses, then, but viruses that go beyond their usual bounds. We will have more to say about such issues later on in the book - for I hope to show you how certain feelings and beliefs do indeed promote health, while others promote an unfortunate extension or exaggeration of perfectly normal bodily processes, or viral activity.

This means, of course, that you do not fall victim to a disease, or catch a virus, but that for one reason or another your own feelings, thoughts, and beliefs lead you to seek bouts of illness.

Certainly, such ideas will sound like medical heresy to many readers, but the sooner you begin to look at health and "disease" in these new terms, the healthier and happier you will become. You are not one thing and illness another, for your thoughts and emotions are the triggers that lead to bouts of poor health. Once you know this, you can begin to take steps that will serve to promote exuberance and vitality instead of fear, doubts, and "disease."

You will discover that so-called diseases perform certain services. They fulfill purposes for you that you may believe you can achieve in no other way. The reasons for such illnesses are not deeply buried in the subconscious, as you may think. They are much closer to the conscious mind, and usually consist of a series of seemingly innocuous decisions that you have made through the years. Other illnesses, of course, may be caused by sudden decisions that are a response to a particular event in your life.

People have been taught that their bodies are a kind of battleground, and that they must be in a constant state of readiness lest they be attacked or invaded by alien germs or viruses or diseases that can strike without warning.

Soon, we will begin to discuss other negative beliefs that cause poor health. For now, however, we will concentrate upon those inbred, positive attitudes, feelings, and beliefs that constantly improve our sense of well-being, strength, and fulfillment.

Jane Roberts, "The Way Towards Health".

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@rado,

Okay, while psychology and mindset certainly do impact health, microbes and disease are in fact realities verified scientifically, and a person who would give this theory an acid test (say, an injection of brain-destroying amoebae or prions directly into the CNS) will soon discover that their positive thoughts are rather ineffective safeguards against organic causative agents.

2 Replies

@rado,

So can you say that disease and viruses are only mind related entities? I suppose some would say that they are dependent upon the mind for some purpose that is maybe elusive to ones consciousness.

The "health" that we speak of is only dependent upon the conscious and subconscious processes, and not external viruses, bacteria, or the type of food we eat and the like. To say that we are healthy is to say that we have some type of benefitial mental process going on, that is at the same time, competing with a detrimental physical ailment such as a viruse or bacteria. to say that we are not healthy is to say that we have some type of detrimental mental process going on, whereby at the same time we could have or not have a physical ailment such as a virus or bacteria.

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@b6zulu,

I have given this idea a lot of thought because I have been sick for several years now. I started writing down what was going on in my life during times of sickness and times of healing. Trying to see if there was a pattern.

I have found that I still get sick when things are going well, and I get better during times of stress. I think though, that when I am sick stress does make it worse for me.

But I am quite certain that my disease does really exist.

I do wonder sometimes if my illness is serving some type of purpose for me. It seems though that it often gets in the way of me doing the things i want to do. But it has altered my life, and influenced the decisions I have made too. I have a feeling I will be thinking on this until I die. Smile

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@pmd,

pmd wrote:

Okay, while psychology and mindset certainly do impact health, microbes and disease are in fact realities verified scientifically, and a person who would give this theory an acid test (say, an injection of brain-destroying amoebae or prions directly into the CNS) will soon discover that their positive thoughts are rather ineffective safeguards against organic causative agents.

Maybe, maybe not. I think your beliefs are important here - if you believe you will get sick, you certainly will, but if you don't, I'm not so sure.

Remember the story about Walter Russell who was healed instantly from Black Diphteria:

"When Russell was fourteen years old, the disease Black Diptheria seemingly destroyed his throat and cut off his breathing. Doctors pronounced the illness fatal with a prognosis for death. In "The Story of My Illumining," Russell wrote, "Then, again, came the great Light which had come to me in my first illumining and I arose from my bed to the great amazement of my weeping parents and to the doctors who found that my throat functioned as properly as though it were perfectly healed."

You can find lots of other healing stories of that kind. Seek (the internet) and you shall find.

Rado

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@rado,

Some great books for understanding what illness is and how to heal oneself:

Jane Roberts: "The Nature of Personal Reality"
Jane Roberts: "The Way Towards Health"

This one explain (among many other things) in particular about the psychological reasons for global diseases and epidemics:

Jane Roberts: "The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events"

This is one of the best books on healing oneself that I know of:

Martin Brofman: "Anything Can Be Healed"

Brofman healed himself from socalled terminal cancer over 30 years ago using a meditation technique a Zen monk taught him. One of the sideffects was that his eyesight also returned to normal again, so he no longer needed glasses. Ever since his own healing he has taught others how to heal themselves the same way. There is a page with some of the succes stories here:

Healing Success Stories - Brofman Foundation for the Advancement of Healing

Rado

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@rado,

Your entire body is made up of many trillion cells. These cells are directly controlled by proteins which are directly controlled by the energy of perception. Therefore, thoughts are things.

If your perceptions are sending negative signals which allow certain proteins to attach to cells. These proteins, both negative or positive effect the movement of the cells. The command center of the cells is not, (contrary to scientific belief) the nucleus or the DNA or genetic code, it's receptors on the membrane of the cells which receive the signals of perception... just as our skin is what feels and the membrane of our eyes is what sees. It's all in perception.

When one perceives their world to be dismal and negative, it puts the body of the cell on defense and reacting in fear which will not induce growth. When the cell of a human, just as the human themselves operates and perceives their world from a position of love rather than hate and fear, changes occur within the body.

Essentially, energy that is in the universe is what we receive and send out. This energy, if perceived negative can only produce negative results. When the community of cells that work together begin to see their world deteriorating, those cells will leave the community out of fear.

In fear there is no growth for the human or for the cells in which the human is composed. In the perception of love, a cell and a human will grow and create. If the human lives in fear, hate and resentment, those are the energy of perception that the individual is sending to his or her physiology and will directly effect it.

The bottom line is, if we don't understand the where the mind or the great command center is of our soul and how our body translates that, how can we know anything about our universe? Thoughts really are things and those thoughts form your perception. It's your perception that will do either harm or good to you body.

DNA is unable to produce biological changes within the body. It's rather a blueprint. What produces the effect is the cause. The cause is perception in the form of energy. Our thoughts can move mountains if we can perceive it. If we perceive the world around us to be a catastrophe, that's exactly what we're going to attract with that energy and that's exactly how the communities of cells within the body will react. Consider them like children. We either send them signals of love or we send them signals of fear. Whatever signals are sent, our bodies will adapt to that environment.

So ultimately we're creating our environment. Walter Russell knew this, science is still trying to discover it. It's energy that flows throughout the entire universe and cannot be measured under a microscope. Where that energy comes from or where it's going has a lot to do with perception.

It's been said that Anger is what causes cancer.

Something to think about...

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@Justin,

Justin,

This energy that your speak of

How could we know that it was benign? Couldn't a disease be from malignant energy?

Is there only one type of energy underlying everything?

If, as I think this theory stipulates, if matter is just a rearrangement of energy couldn't certain arrangements negatively react with one another?

What is 'energy of perception'?

Love and hate are concepts that are too abstract for our cells to understand.

I tell myself diabetes is good, it won't make somebody I know better. If they tell themselves diabetes is good that won't keep them from dying. Sure there are miracles, but by definition, these cannot be explained. Not every optimist conquered cancer.

Why would our cells be impacted so directly by how we feel in regards to hate and fear?

Do you stipulate that our cells can perceive love and hate? How?

Furthermore, if a person fears something, do you think that they and their body will curl up and cringe and accept (or produce according to the theory as I see it) a disease? Wouldn't it make much more sense to fight back?

Elizabeth Kubler Ross often pointed out that there was a period of denial as reaction to tragedy. Wouldn't this denial obliterate any 'disease'? As rado says "The reasons for such illnesses are not deeply buried in the subconscious, as you may think. They are much closer to the conscious mind". If this disease is at the forefront of our minds, denial would demolish terminal illnesses in common reactions.

I believe in a human nature that doesn't give up and go home when they are afraid. I believe in a human nature that will fight back. The theory (as I see it) shows lack of courage on the part of humans and their cells.

Rado, I agree that you will feel happier, and I think it is important to take a positive approach towards health. I am of the school of thought that "It only hurts if you think it does", but in reality this does not work. It's merely a method to make the pain easier. You will be happier, but you will still die. You may even prolong your life through the psychology of it all.

Lastly Justin, Descartes could get away with confusing science and philosophy, but contemporary philosophers cannot. It is impossible for science to prove something philosophical, otherwise it would cease being philosophy. The two disciplines are too different in methodology for this to occur. I feel (I know feeling isn't right here) and think very strongly on this particular point.

I look forward to your response.

Cheers!
-sc

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@Justin,

Justin,

It is something to think about. I have thought about this very thing many times. I have found though, in my experience that my thinking patterns have little or nothing to do with the onset of illness. Once I am ill, stress of any kind(good or bad) will exacerbate my problem. I can also flip into remission in spite of feeling negative and fearful.

I thought you put forth some interesting theories, but I have to question how you know any of this is true. Specifically the points in the quote below.

Quote:

This energy, if perceived negative can only produce negative results. When the community of cells that work together begin to see their world deteriorating, those cells will leave the community out of fear.

In fear there is no growth for the human or for the cells in which the human is composed. In the perception of love, a cell and a human will grow and create. If the human lives in fear, hate and resentment, those are the energy of perception that the individual is sending to his or her physiology and will directly effect it.

Cells leaving their deteriorating world out of fear? How do you figure that works? How could one know that? I really would like to know, I am not trying to be sassy.

The problem I have with this kind of thinking is that it lays blame for illness at the victim's feet. Being sick is hard enough without having to go through feeling it is your own fault because of your negative thinking patterns or whatever. I know, I have struggled with this many times myself, really struggled!

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@speakerchef,

SpeakerChef, Didn't mean to avoid you. Trying to get some other things set up. Thanks for your patience.

speakerchef wrote:

This energy that your speak of

How could we know that it was benign? Couldn't a disease be from malignant energy?

It is easy to assume that the universe was created with love due to the results love produces. Love creates balance so yes, I believe that it is benign. We can perceive this benign energy however we wish. Man can turn something very positive into something very negative with his perception which would send out negative vibrations into the universe and just as cells seek out like kinds to build communities, so would the person. So essentially disease could be transferred from a parent to a child, (for example).

Quote:

Is there only one type of energy underlying everything?

I believe there is. I believe this is what is believed to be God. Science will eventually come to the conclusion that there is an energy and spiritual side to everything that happens in life. Science will come to the conclusion that it's something they are unable to measure yet discover.

Quote:

If, as I think this theory stipulates, if matter is just a rearrangement of energy couldn't certain arrangements negatively react with one another?

I'd definitely think so. When cells in the body start to live in fear or are in a community that is breaking up, they will abandon the community. Just like human communities. Remember, every single cell, has the exact same systems as you do. It's organism of energy that receives energy based on perception.

Quote:

What is 'energy of perception'?

Hmm... Well you perceive things... it's all energy. I'm not exactly sure how to answer this one. Energy is moving all the time. Your perception will attract energy.

Quote:

Love and hate are concepts that are too abstract for our cells to understand.

Correct for many, I disagree. Communities of cells is what builds our body and controls our physiology. Just as human communities build their cities and structures, cells work in the same fashion. If the cell receives negative energy of fear and obstruction, it must adjust accordingly. These cells go into a mode that is not growth prohibitive and will even change their structure to adjust to the environment... Just as you and I will adjust to our environment. If those cells have formed a community, then they are as one cell and the negative perceptions will effect the entire community.

The body will change to accommodate our thoughts and perceptions. Our communities will change according to our thoughts and perceptions. Our physical conditions will change according to our perceptions. Our entire world around us will change accordingly to our thoughts and perceptions.

Quote:

I tell myself diabetes is good, it won't make somebody I know better. If they tell themselves diabetes is good that won't keep them from dying. Sure there are miracles, but by definition, these cannot be explained. Not every optimist conquered cancer.

Diabetes is not good. Telling yourself doesn't necessarily change your perception. Their perception is already formed that diabetes is not good, so telling someone doesn't help. However, what imbalance within the body caused it? If the communities of cells maintain your body, they experience life through our perception.

Similar to a fetus in the womb of a mother. The fetus is experiencing life through the perception of the mother.

Quote:

Why would our cells be impacted so directly by how we feel in regards to hate and fear?

Through the signals that are sent. Through the environment we provide for them. It either stimulates growth and productivity or the opposite.

Quote:

Do you stipulate that our cells can perceive love and hate? How?

Yes. Either positive or negative. If negative, then negative effect. If positive, likewise.

Quote:

Furthermore, if a person fears something, do you think that they and their body will curl up and cringe and accept (or produce according to the theory as I see it) a disease? Wouldn't it make much more sense to fight back?

If they are coming from a perception of fear, that fear is usually connected to our conditioning. Where did that fear come from? Who taught us to fear this certain thing. If we perceive fear, then the signals of our perception will emit fear. Like seeks like and builds a community. It's like certain communities in society have black clouds hovering above and many people are stricken with health problems or diabetes. The community as a whole is effected.

For instance. When my family decides to get a dog, we go to the dog pound. Many of the dogs in the pound come from a position of fear. This fear sends signals to every system in their animal bodies. When we first bring a dog home from the pound, it's an animal and wild. We have had dogs run as soon as the door opens or disobey and mess up the house.

Through training and most of all, showing them love, they begin to perceive their world differently and adjust accordingly. After a year a so, our dogs become near perfect pets because they've had a paradigm shift due to their perception of their world changing. It's actually an amazing thing but it's similar to that in Human life. We will adapt accordingly.

Now you mentioned fighting back. Of course our cells will fight back, just as we would fight back while under attack. Think about it. When our country or world is at war, we are building up mechanisms to protect ourselves. Our energy is focused on the fear and during this time, it's stops the productivity of growth. We cannot be preparing for battle and continue growing because the growth will cease. The energy is spent in preparation for something we fear and our communities will adjust accordingly. Love will promote growth and balance and fear will promote death and destruction.

Quote:

Elizabeth Kubler Ross often pointed out that there was a period of denial as reaction to tragedy. Wouldn't this denial obliterate any 'disease'? As rado says "The reasons for such illnesses are not deeply buried in the subconscious, as you may think. They are much closer to the conscious mind". If this disease is at the forefront of our minds, denial would demolish terminal illnesses in common reactions.

Does denial change perception? What if the perception was something that was instilled during the nurturing part of your childhood? The answer is in undoing what has already been done.

"You're just a dumb kid, shut up!". Prior to a child having a consciousness, this kind of statement would send negative energy to the child and once it's perceived, (action), there would then be the reaction. In cells, fear and anxiety break up communities and stop growth and communication. It could take many years, it could take one, but coming from a perspective of fear will produce and attract that in which we fear. Our bodies will adjust, our cell structures will adjust, and then we will communicate into the universe that energy and that energy will attract the like. Then there become support for this and that's why birds of a feather flock together.

Quote:

I believe in a human nature that doesn't give up and go home when they are afraid. I believe in a human nature that will fight back. The theory (as I see it) shows lack of courage on the part of humans and their cells.

Human nature is to believe what our parents taught us and what the world teaches us. Humans fight back because of coming from a position of fear. When you are afraid, you put up defenses. When you are not afraid, you are open and grow. Just like that of the cells within the body. Remember, they are very similar to humans because they have all the same systems that we have. Their thoughts however, come from the universe. The energy we emit and attract over and over again.

Quote:

Rado, I agree that you will feel happier, and I think it is important to take a positive approach towards health. I am of the school of thought that "It only hurts if you think it does", but in reality this does not work. It's merely a method to make the pain easier. You will be happier, but you will still die. You may even prolong your life through the psychology of it all.

"but in reality this does not work.". Now take a person like yourself and try to tell them any different. You just stated that you agree about feeling happier is positive but in reality it doesn't work. It will never work for you because that is your perception. Saying and doing are only actions to satisfy the ego, but the perception hasn't changed. How will you ever know if it works if you already believe it doesn't? You see, it's all in perception.

Quote:

Lastly Justin, Descartes could get away with confusing science and philosophy, but contemporary philosophers cannot. It is impossible for science to prove something philosophical, otherwise it would cease being philosophy. The two disciplines are too different in methodology for this to occur. I feel (I know feeling isn't right here) and think very strongly on this particular point.

Why not. there's really nothing confusing about it at all. The problem is science is limited to the 5 senses and the mechanics of it all. Religion is limited by faith in something we were conditioned to believe in and simply builds edifices between mankind and his creator. Philosophy is much more than a study but an unfolding from one paradigm to another. The problem is all of these things come from one and are all connected through things that we cannot see.

Science will bring it to a point where they can prove that it's something that cannot be measured. Religion and Science will eventually come to a point where they can work together in the same community and it will be philosophy that makes it possible. Philosophy applies to the scientist as much as it applies to the monk or the hooker on the streets. Philosophy is directly related to perception and perception is what controls the results.

The answer to all of this is knowing of the cause of all effect rather than dealing with and trying to patch the effects. We know cells are controlled by the energy we receive, and that energy is a constant flowing source in all creation. That creation is love and balance which isn't what we're conditioned to believe or accept... so ultimately, our communities will have disease and other various problems directly based upon our perception of our reality.

I don't know that this was the best way to articulate my thoughts but whether they are accepted or not, they are my thoughts and my perception and therefore my reality. We can build and have balance with love or destroy with fear and hate.

It all comes down to the individual perception. Just as a drop of water raises the entire ocean, the thoughts and perceptions of a few individuals can raise all of humanity.

... Can I be done now? Smile

Look forward to the responses.

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@rado,

Quote:

The problem I have with this kind of thinking is that it lays blame for illness at the victim's feet. Being sick is hard enough without having to go through feeling it is your own fault because of your negative thinking patterns or whatever. I know, I have struggled with this many times myself, really struggled!

Cmarie, we are not really victims. We are victims because we've been trained and condition to believe so but we are only a product of our imaginings. If you struggle with this, you are struggling with guilt which is yet another negative signal.

The God everyone talks about is the very spirit of creation. We're not separate from creation we are creation.

The part about the cells is from my understanding of them and based on experiments that others have performed on cells. We can clone cells. I don't need to know how, but understanding what commands the cells to respond the way they do is very important.

I will put something up here or someone that can explain it better than I. LOL, I'm a webmaster with a desire to understand who I am and what my purpose is. I research quite a bit if there's something I'd like to understand but based on my own personal experiences, I can tell you that everything that has happened in my life, is something that I have created. Good or bad, it just is and I just am and you just are. So I study and experience and that's how I know, therefore it forms my philosophy (the sum of what we know).

Transforming and undoing is the hardest part... I know because I'm experiencing it.

You are OK Cmarie Smile

. Cheers!

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@pmd,

pmd wrote:

Okay, while psychology and mindset certainly do impact health, microbes and disease are in fact realities verified scientifically, and a person who would give this theory an acid test (say, an injection of brain-destroying amoebae or prions directly into the CNS) will soon discover that their positive thoughts are rather ineffective safeguards against organic causative agents.

You should try to be aware of the words you use, like that French man trying to learn English, wondering why Ague was two syllables and plague was one, when each was a party to the other. Disease really is dis ease. It shows the mind set of a people who accepted the power of Shamens. And it also recognizes the power of social relationships to effect physical and mental health. But in a larger sense, in the sense of the larger organisms of society, and humanity; it is disease that is the cause of war, the cause of murder, and the cause of suicide. It is behind every injustice, and results from every injustice. Even the thought of an acid test applied to humans is a sign of disease, for to attack a positive thought with a brain destroying agent is, even in the imagination, a terrible thing.

We know there are diseases. We should also know the importance of positive behavior, thoughts, and encouragement. This is not an easy life. It has not found the promise of technology to be truthful. Surely, medicine can cure diseases, but they spawn many more for which there is no defense. In the end, the disease of a society bent on exploitation, injustice, and denial of reality cannot but produce diseases in all its members. We suffer a society without basic good health, virtue, or sanity. What else should we expect but disease? I seek good health. At a minimum I try to not carry nor justify the diseases we suffer. I could use some encouragement.

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@rado,

First, I %100 believe that medically impossible healings occur, and would defend that point till I was blue. But I'm wondering why we should assume that the only variable that controls our healing/non-healing is ourselves. If it was something that a person could single-handedly learn/will/control, I would think that someone should have figured it out by now and not died.

Also, I was wondering in response to Justin: If there is one energy behind the whole universe and it itself has no goodness or badness, how can there be positive and negative? Or how and why would someone judge results to be positive or negative? How would having negative thoughts produce negative results through an energy that has no positive or negative?

1 Reply

@NeitherExtreme,

NeitherExtreme wrote:

First, I %100 believe that medically impossible healings occur, and would defend that point till I was blue. But I'm wondering why we should assume that the only variable that controls our healing/non-healing is ourselves. If it was something that a person could single-handedly learn/will/control, I would think that someone should have figured it out by now and not died.

Also, I was wondering in response to Justin: If there is one energy behind the whole universe and it itself has no goodness or badness, how can there be positive and negative? Or how and why would someone judge results to be positive or negative? How would having negative thoughts produce negative results through an energy that has no positive or negative?

Even if no one is ever actually cured from an actual disease by will or mind, still, the greatest single killer in my country is cardio-vascular disease of which stress is a large componant and contributing factor. Undoubtably, people also suffer depression, and eat too much, and exercise too little under stress, and in addition suffer from lack of sleep. People in supportive communities which look in on the aged, and keep them going, actually prolongue their lives statistically and their general health. Good feelings and a positive attitude both contribute to health, and increase the immune response. They help, and sometimes help is all that is needed to get some one by a crises.

1 Reply

@rado,

Hey guys
Im not advocating anything
But I couldnt help but notice,
Whenever I was sick.. I noticed that after taking LSD my 'sick' symptoms would all dissapear. completely.
And this has also occured with many people around me.
But anyways,
The environment is a great subject, isnt it?
As masters of the universe we are the creater species and we make our environments
Our environment is directly related to our thoughts
Slowly, over the course of time, as mass releases its qualities and we absorb them we discover the environment, which is literally ourselves
Landmarks in time like Technological advancements are probably the easiest way to see what our purpose truely is as masters of the universe
Technology, or the rearranging of the environment and taking advantage of its qualities, is something we are supposed to do as human beings
Mass helps us learn and is a great teacher for our lessons
Because mass is energy and it holds qualities and it releases them over time, perfect for our human expierence
Which is experiencing separation from the absolute which is a condition of low awareness, being trapped in mass.. finite separation.. it is a state of learning by absorbing unknown qualities from the environment
But as human beings we cant help but realize we are spiritual because our awareness is growing due to the exponentially expanding absorbtion rate of us the creater species
We are absorbing qualities faster and faster from mass
Awareness is growing exponentially
Technology is growing exponentially
Mass is losing qualities faster and faster
Until what point? Hmm..
Its true we can see our advancements occuring faster and faster, but answering the question Why? Is nothing but prediction, but the big picture is forming and getting clearer and clearer, faster and faster, and heres my prediction:
What happens when we get to the point where this effect caused by the absorbtion rate is occuring so fast that literal physical changes will occur in our environments instantly?
That point is where we realize we are all one
The environment, man, and this energy all become aware of eachother
And mankind will actually believe it, and make it so, as a whole species
And the environment will literally become whatever you think of instantly
Unfortuantely this means a huge decline in population
And large conflicts
Because conflict release quality from mass
The absorbtion rate will get to the point where it literally becomes harmful to all life
Technological advancements will occur faster and faster and faster
Until we reach this point in our belief

0 Replies

@Fido,

A disease is both an experience and a pathologic process. Philosophical speculation as appears throughout this thread does not at all exclude the actual biological processes that cause tissue injury and symptomatology, or the effect of therapy. Miracle cures in medicine are not miracle cures -- they're simply diseases and patients that we didn't understand. Patients do all kinds of things you can't anticipate.

I spent about 90 minutes talking to a patient yesterday about various aspects of her disease. I wasn't able to intervene in some of her problems, but I helped her understand them and be a more informed participant in her care and medical decisions. She was exceptionally grateful. The big problem in medicine today is that we have great therapies (for many things) but very little time. Patients get extremely dissatisfied when we only give drug therapy but we don't take time to involve them in their own care.

But the issue of how to holistically care for someone who is ill is much different than abstract speculation about disease processes by philosophers, because there IS such a thing as disease. I see it every day.

Fido wrote:

the greatest single killer in my country is cardio-vascular disease of which stress is a large componant and contributing factor.

Stress is not a large component of cardiovascular disease. All else being equal it is a minor contributor.

Cholesterol abnormalities, hypertension, diabetes, smoking, significant family histories, APO-lipoprotein abnormalities, age, and gender are all vastly more important risk factors statistically than stress.

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

A disease is both an experience and a pathologic process. Philosophical speculation as appears throughout this thread does not at all exclude the actual biological processes that cause tissue injury and symptomatology, or the effect of therapy. Miracle cures in medicine are not miracle cures -- they're simply diseases and patients that we didn't understand. Patients do all kinds of things you can't anticipate.

I spent about 90 minutes talking to a patient yesterday about various aspects of her disease. I wasn't able to intervene in some of her problems, but I helped her understand them and be a more informed participant in her care and medical decisions. She was exceptionally grateful. The big problem in medicine today is that we have great therapies (for many things) but very little time. Patients get extremely dissatisfied when we only give drug therapy but we don't take time to involve them in their own care.

But the issue of how to holistically care for someone who is ill is much different than abstract speculation about disease processes by philosophers, because there IS such a thing as disease. I see it every day.

Stress is not a large component of cardiovascular disease. All else being equal it is a minor contributor.

Cholesterol abnormalities, hypertension, diabetes, smoking, significant family histories, APO-lipoprotein abnormalities, age, and gender are all vastly more important risk factors statistically than stress.

Come now, young lady, are you saying people do not smoke, or eat out of stress, or that they do not suffer hypertension directly from stress? This is not to say that I disagree with you in general. I do. Rather, I look at primitive societies that were in one form or another suffering from stress beyond what we can imagine, usually; and their method in regard to all illness was the social solution, and this involved looking for a psychological cause and remedy. In the example of the Native Americans, all the old men became shamens, and all resorted to trickery, and all welcomed any European medicine, openly admitting that they had no cure for most of what ailed them. Too often, at that point, neither did the Europeans since it was their diseases that were destroying the natives. The thing is, that the social solution works for the social problem, and a physical solution is required by a physical problem. There is some overlap. Stress, and depression do effect the immune system.

And, no one is ever sick alone. I am terrible at being sick. I expect that when it is my time, that I will run off to the woods and curl up and die like the dog I am, if given a chance. But normally there is no denying that a whole family suffers the illness of one. And no doubt, people like yourself must hurt to see other people in pain. But, as you suggest, we are deprived in our society of the very thing each of us needs most, and that is meaningful relationships. So we triage. We let the dead buy the dead without the understanding that they have something precious they want to give us before they die. I trust that you hold many such gifts. Be blessed.

1 Reply

@Fido,

Fido wrote:

Come now, young lady

My wife would be shocked to learn that I'm a young lady, but hey, we're in the realm of the abstract Very Happy

Quote:

are you saying people do not smoke, or eat out of stress, or that they do not suffer hypertension directly from stress?

Some do, some don't. But they also smoke, eat, and suffer hypertension directly because at one point they were born, because as teenagers they picked up cigarettes and never quit, because their kidneys can't dump salt loads, because our society loves supersized meals and values but not quality food, etc. There are many of people with low levels of stress who have diabetes, or who smoke, or who have dyslipidemias. It's not so simple a relationship that one can universalize your statement.

You have to statistically control for all other independent risk factors before stress becomes a contributor at all. In other words, stress alone is a very weak predictor as compared with diabetes or smoking in the absence of stress. Stress has been largely discredited as a major independent risk factor since so many more important ones have been identified. Stress is coming a little bit back en vogue these days, because it correlates with elevated C-reactive protein, which is itself a moderate risk factor for heart disease (though we don't really know how to interpret it very well).

Quote:

Rather, I look at primitive societies that were in one form or another suffering from stress beyond what we can imagine, usually; and their method in regard to all illness was the social solution, and this involved looking for a psychological cause and remedy.

And look how it's working out for them. I've spent a LOT of time doing medical work in Africa, as well as in the Amazon. And guess what -- the mortality rates from stroke, heart disease, and diabetes are statistically about the same in poor countries as they are in developed countries (though this is regionally variable). Their excess mortality is attributable mainly to infectious and nutritional diseases. In Ghana and in the Amazon I routinely saw patients with blood pressures of 220/120 or 240/160, some of them who walked in dragging a foot behind them because of a fully evolved stroke.

Quote:

And, no one is ever sick alone. I am terrible at being sick. I expect that when it is my time, that I will run off to the woods and curl up and die like the dog I am, if given a chance. But normally there is no denying that a whole family suffers the illness of one. And no doubt, people like yourself must hurt to see other people in pain. But, as you suggest, we are deprived in our society of the very thing each of us needs most, and that is meaningful relationships. So we triage. We let the dead buy the dead without the understanding that they have something precious they want to give us before they die. I trust that you hold many such gifts. Be blessed.

Yes, illness penetrates every level of someone's life, which is why I just had to fax a work excuse off for a patient I'm taking care of in the ICU. That's more stressful to her than the life-threatening disease she has. Medicine is not a pure science -- it's a domain of life that uses a lot of science, but it's more about communication than anything else.

-Paul

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

My wife would be shocked to learn that I'm a young lady, but hey, we're in the realm of the abstract

Some do, some don't. But they also smoke, eat, and suffer hypertension directly because at one point they were born, because as teenagers they picked up cigarettes and never quit, because their kidneys can't dump salt loads, because our society loves supersized meals and values but not quality food, etc. There are many of people with low levels of stress who have diabetes, or who smoke, or who have dyslipidemias. It's not so simple a relationship that one can universalize your statement.

You have to statistically control for all other independent risk factors before stress becomes a contributor at all. In other words, stress alone is a very weak predictor as compared with diabetes or smoking in the absence of stress. Stress has been largely discredited as a major independent risk factor since so many more important ones have been identified. Stress is coming a little bit back en vogue these days, because it correlates with elevated C-reactive protein, which is itself a moderate risk factor for heart disease (though we don't really know how to interpret it very well).

And look how it's working out for them. I've spent a LOT of time doing medical work in Africa, as well as in the Amazon. And guess what -- the mortality rates from stroke, heart disease, and diabetes are statistically about the same in poor countries as they are in developed countries (though this is regionally variable). Their excess mortality is attributable mainly to infectious and nutritional diseases. In Ghana and in the Amazon I routinely saw patients with blood pressures of 220/120 or 240/160, some of them who walked in dragging a foot behind them because of a fully evolved stroke.

Yes, illness penetrates every level of someone's life, which is why I just had to fax a work excuse off for a patient I'm taking care of in the ICU. That's more stressful to her than the life-threatening disease she has. Medicine is not a pure science -- it's a domain of life that uses a lot of science, but it's more about communication than anything else.

-Paul

Sorry. I never learned how to turn a pup belly up. You sound like you can care about people. Rare trait in a man, not so rare in women. Guess that's why I got one for a brain.

Look, I am not prepared to dispute any of the hard core science or medicine with you. I dreamed of being a surgeon once, but I kept falling out of my patients. I knew more about medicine at twenty than I do at fifty. To me it is all a moral issue. Even the stress part. I can't give that much meaning to it because usually people who have it do not make an issue of it. Some people love it. Some people look for it. That ain't my problem. And they like myself will pay for their lives with their lives. It does seem unfair that the poor die at a greater rate and wait longer for treatment. I think our medical institutions and infrastucture are a mess. I think a lot of illnesses are treated which should not be, like diabetes, which does have a genetic componant. Disease is like poverty in that it directly threatens a life, and very often the response is to have more children and not less. This was true as a statistic 35 years ago in regard to diabetes, but, if the society is not willing to address across the board all the unhappiness and unfulfilled wishes that drive people to eat too much and drink too much and risk too much for nothing then it must count on paying for mounting health care forever.

If ever a society had a screw loose it is this one. They took some guy out of the side of his house a couple of months back with a long boom fork truck on a big pallet, and then they drove him to the hospital on the fork truck. What is it about children? Are their parents afraid to kick them out the door? Are they miserable? Are they stressed? Depressed? My guess is that many of them are picking up on the absolute fear of the future all the adults are afraid to admit to feeling. I can't say what is happening in the third world, but around here things quit getting better a long time ago.

1 Reply

@Fido,

Rado, this theory has the advantage and disadvantage of not being disprovable or provable, respectively.

House would not approve. Then again, House self-administered LSD for a migrane in one episode (you'll have to forgive me, I spent the last week watching all 4.5 seasons- great show, by the way). He did it based on a medically based theory of how it would interact with his spinal chord, though, not just "because".

The brain is a tricky thing. I have no doubt in my mind that with the perfect amount of self-thought control, anyone with any condition can "feel" fine. Despite how one feels on drugs or under the influence of thought control (self-administered or otherwise), how you "feel" is not necessarily a reliable measure of how healthy your body actually is.

Anecdote: a few years ago, I broke my left leg right at my knee. At 26, I was diagnosed with extreme arthritis, and it hurt terribly to walk anywhere and movement was limited. I tried all the pain meds and physical therapies, to no avail.

Then I saw a pain management specialist at the hospital. This guy used to be a psychologist and now spent his time working with chronic pain victims, with a twist- he never used drugs. He worked with how they thought. He "prescribed" me the book "Feeling Good" and after reading the book and a couple sessions with him, the pain was manageable. Today, my leg is doing much better than it should be doing.

It takes some practice, but eventually I learned to focus on other things besides the pain.

I'll describe one of the sessions:

He was telling me how he tries to live in the moment, and one of the ways he tries to do this by trying to enjoy colors. He tries to see each color as if he were seeing it for the first time, and experience that sensation fully.

He then said, "Like, that chair next to you. That shade of blue. I really like that shade of blue." He then stared at the chair. I waited for him to stop, but he didn't. I looked at the chair. It was kind of a cool shade of blue. I looked back at the guy- he was still staring at it. I looked back at the chair. Yes, definately a cool shade of blue. I looked at it for a little and then back at him. He blinked, and then changed the subject.

It was very unorthodox, and he had told me earlier had OCD and was probably on amps, but what he did really helped. He showed me that I have the choice to just shut everything out and focus on what I want to for as long as I want to.

It's all about choice. It's harder to exercise choice if you're sick, but it is possible. That doesn't mean you won't be sick. It just won't really matter as much to you that you're sick.

1 Reply

There is no such thing as disease

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