Do you believe in God?

Belief is made up of supposed facts interpreted by the individual and as his or her facts become more evolved his or her beliefs can or should develop..thats why i maintain my agnostic stand..

Facts can be supported by more facts and more evidence. That is extrinsic.

But facts can also rise or fall in importance. And that is intrinsic.

For instance, if I witness a miracle when I'm 5 years old, that may be an immutable fact to me -- but if I reflect upon it 30 years later, then that experience may have become trivial in importance. So the extrinsic evidence didn't change -- but what was once a hard fact has since melted away. The opposite is true as well (perhaps even more true), since people who have become religious later in life often look back and rationalize many past experiences into their belief system.

Majic, the strong emotions expressed in your post lead me to believe you are frustrated with trying to understand other people's beliefs and how they arrived at those beliefs and results in a confusing post for me.

At one point in your post, you claim God is a lie, but then you read a little further through your post and find things like "God is within". And to some extent I think I see what your trying to convey- That this picture we have of God being this image of a old man with a long beard sitting in the clouds staring down on his creation is not the same God you believe in and you think its a 'lie'. And I also take it you are a strong believer of free-will because you keep mentioning how people enjoy not feeling responsible for their actions so they find it suitable to blame a "God" for their actions. But this also confuses me. If God is within, then does that not eliminate the idea of free-will? Could free-will not just be an illusion if God is within and perhaps God has simply made itself unaware of it's control over itself? If we are this "God" or "life-energy" or "spirit", IE: this collective force you describe, and we are all making decisions, then isn't that basically the same thing as saying "God is in control"? Or "If we are in control then God too is in control"?

I just want to point out that:
I think most of the original and ancient texts that describe God are written in other languages besides English and then translated into one we can all hopefully understand today. But you have to realize, back then when the books were written they used a different language to describe their surroundings and often when translated into a new language things seem very metaphorical and hard to understand in a language like English. Look at the first languages, they are very symbolic, the ideas attached to the symbols are very non-literal. As the English language is based off of literal, and pragmatic view-points, when converting to English from other languages that are not as pragmatic, you end up with lots of metaphors and what people deem as 'nonsense' in the English language. Because we ultimately don't speak the same language or share the same view so when you read a ancient text like a bible, you have to keep that in mind at all times. Yes, the information from older texts can be interpreted literally, at first this is what we normally do because we are used to thinking in our own language and the view attached to that language, but of course when taken literally these texts seem hard to understand from a literal stand because they were not written that way and very confusing knowledge is gained. If you keep in mind that a literal language like English wasn't used when those books were written, and force yourself to change view points, you will realize that you have to interpret older texts many different ways to get the full message. When you read a bible and get the common image of a old man sitting in the clouds, its really a metaphor that needs to be re-read over and over. What im trying to say Majic is I feel you really are agreeing with the same thing lots of ancient religions do, its just that you are using a different language to explain and interpret it. The image of the old man sitting in the clouds looking down on his creation is a metaphor. It's not literal. We have been to space and there's no man in the clouds looking over us. But what that image is trying to convey is, there is something else, beyond our perceptions, that is undoubtedly in control, and that is also within us as well. Back then they just used a different language to convey that point, a language that is much more symbolic than ours of today. I think you actually agree with alot of the religious view points of God but you just are used to 21st century thought and interpretation of those concepts. Correct me if im wrong ofcourse..

If you happen to be correct you deserve a prize in psychology lock

l0ck, you have hit on the most significant spiritual problem facing our world: communication. Don't get me wrong, there are a great many other troubles as well, but none of them can be addressed until we manage to communicate effectively with one another, and engage in productive discourse with people of all persuasions.

Part of the trouble is that, as you point out, we live in a world entirely alien to the ancients. Some recognize this and reason that we should abandon the older teachings as irrelevant to us in the modern world; this argument fails because we share the only quality required: humanity. The spiritual life takes practice - no one said this was easy... well, if they did say this was easy, you know they were a charlatan.

Hello again,
I think what this thread did to change my opinion was to make me really want to find an answer for the first time, however once breaking it down I came to conclusions that changed my perspective on the issue, in no way have I suddenly become a "religious" man, I just have a broader view of the subject .
Basically the question for me became "does God exist?" From this I ended up realising that if I am consciously thinking about "something" then surely that "something" exists at least as a conceptual entity. Then the question became "how did this conceptual entity come into existence?" (this was clashing with another thread that I was viewing in the social philosophy section titled "religion vs philosophy", The point within this thread that was pulling my strings was that someone stated "Religion led to philosophy which led to science". I however believe that philosophy & science spawned religion. The reason for this stance is that I feel that our ancestral thinkers were trying to forge some kind of order by forming social structures & this required focusing the minds of the populous in one unified direction, to become more efficient as a species & to survive (possibly learned while staring at an ants nest or something similar & brings light to the whole concept of "the lord is my shepherd").
From the combinations of these views I could plainly see that "god" does exist as a conceptual entity that has had direct influence on the world around me. All modern society at some point was born out of this forging of concepts; it made me wonder would the vote results of this thread differ much if it was "do you believe in democracy"? I feel that when you view the subject of "God's" existence in this way with all the shaping of the world as a result I could not deny that "god" exists.
Cheers folks
TTFN.

However you already knew his concept existed before going down that way, didnt you? Well, I guess you thought new things along the way anyway

I don't believe in god, but I fear his wrath, i don't know were i got that quote but basically explains my belief. :bigsmile:

10ck, I'm sorry I didn't get back to you earlier - busy doing this and that. I hesitated before I wrote, "God is within" and now I see I have confused my position by saying that. My analysis brings me to the conclusion that we are all a part of some sort of Life-Energy. It could be understood as a string of Christmas lights. The energy in the string of lights could be called spirit, while each individual light is soul. We, as a total group created this world and others, individually we create our own reality. Saying God is within is not entirely true because WE are the within, we are the Life-Energy. We all have free choice and therefore we are all responsible for our own reality, and collectively for the universe.
The point is there is no outside force directing us. No one to pray to. No one to punish us, no one to worship.
Because we are responsible there are no accidents, therefore no blame. All that happens to us are learning experiences. To make it a little clearer I need to introduce the concept of reincarnation. We pre-plan our next incarnation for maximum learning. We choose the people we need to work out problems with. We broadly choose our environment, our parents, our life partners, even how we will exit this world. When events happen that we think are random, they are probably happening because they have been pre-plan in our lives. Of course, we can change our pre-plan by intent anytime we want. We have complete free choice.
I understand the concept of God to mean that there is something or someone in control of us. If that is correct, then I say there is no God. We, collectively create our world.
Majic

If you read across cultures you will realize that Lucifer / Satan is GOD..

You can't have happiness without evil there would be no balance.

Did you not realize your are in purgatory ?

-BaC
Masonic Grand Wizard - Phd

If you would like qualifications

Google results of some of my works

you cannot have good without the possibility of evil. The potential for evil must exist fort there to be free will, but we can choose never to commit it- as could Lucifer.

So i cant believe in free will because i dont believe in god or the devil ???? how strange..

Ha Ha, you are in a pickle, aren't you?

William

If I might offer a little of my own insight here, please. Free will "is" our ability to chose and make our own decisions. We are endowed with that ability. Considering the reality we all live in is based on those very decisions, one should ask is free will the right way to go? If not, what else is there? That's all we know.

IMO, free will is a selfish construct invented by man to justify the choices he has made and being a perfect creation, he is incapable of making "bad choices". Our ego will not hear of it. You see not only do we make really bad choices, we are also capable of "inventing" reasons for those choices that allay blame so we can exist amidst those bad choices as we foolishly espouse "there must be evil" to give us balance. What a crock! IMO.

Sorry, Avatar, I am not beating you up here, it is just a common thought you have issued and one that is often referred to in discussions such as this. The problem is we "CAN" eliminate evil, it is that we are just "used" to it. We have grown accustom to existing with it. That's not good, folks no matter how you try and rationalize it.

As long as "evil" doesn't tread in our "personal existence", we don't give it much thought. That's something that happens "to others". That's why we "get off" witnessing bad things happen to "other people". It's a welcome relief for us to know that is not happening to us. How so very sad that is. We are constantly inundated with that crap every time we turn on the television as it brings us up close and personal with all the crap in the world, some fabricated, some not, so we can feel privileged in our lot in life as we breathe a sigh of relief realizing "things could be worse" and how so very lucky we are. Damn!

Evil doesn't have to exist, we are just to ******* selfish to do anything about it. Not all, just those who "have" something to be selfish over. Most who live in this world have little to be selfish over. So to conclude that "evil" is a natural construct in the universe is just a cop out that relieves those who have "more" of culpability.

Yes, I will agree there is a balance, but if it is all the same to you I would like to imagine the worse evil I will ever have to experience would be a frown from another rather than having my head chopped off. Call it a matter of degrees as we balance positives and negatives. Let's let the negatives propel us to the positives as we do all in our power to eliminate those "head chopping" negatives to be nothing more than a gentle nudge toward perfection as we concentrate on the positives life has to offer for all who live here.

As we become apathetic towards evil, we cease to move in that positive direction and begin to cook in our own selfishness until "evil" knocks on our own front door. If we don't at least attempt to eliminate it we are destined to become a part of it. Together, we can kick evil's ass but it has to be a group effort. Are we grouped? Not even close. Just a bunch of out of control ego's running around doing all we can to justify our own selfishness as we regard it being "prosperous" giving little thought to the rationalizations and compromise's that enabled that prosperity. You know exercising our "free will" and all.

You want evil to go away, then create an environment that will allow all the freedom to live without worrying if they have the price it takes to live on this planet. Eliminate the inequity that exists in the world and iniquity will go with it. It.......is.......just.......that.......simple.

Please forgive the rant. I am so looking for anyone to point out the flaws in my reasoning. To me it is all so very clear. I have been wrong before and if my reasoning is flawed, please don't hesitate to illustrate to me otherwise in language I can understand. I like simplicity.
Again, sorry for the rant.
William

I cant at the moment but im sure ill give it a go..no seriously my problem with the acceptance of it being a necessity or "it will always be with us because god deemed it so" is defeatist, the faithfuls achilles..What god has created let not man discard..How can a christian commit himself to ridding the world of the devil or evil as it is a necessity in his faith driven world..

Right on, William! We need to move beyond the propaganda of the church. It doesn't make sense to me that free will has anything to do with 'evil'.
Majic

I understanding what you are saying and why these discussions always "turn" religious. What I said in no way even mentioned religion. It is about a truth once accomplished, will usher out the need for "religion". What you do say is accurate, but with evil gone, the glue that holds most religions together will dissolve and man will for the first time in his existence be truly be free and unafraid to live that life for which he was meant to live. :a-ok:

William

Majic, my friend you have go be careful when you go down that road as you regard the "church" in the definite way you did. There are a lot of good people that belong to those churches who simply know no better and do find a solace in those havens. To arbitrarily say the "church" you offend those people and their refuge. No good as things go. By eliminating evil as we band together for the common good, we will disarm those who "use" the church as a means of control. It will be creating a "good" outside the church, far better than what the church offers inside it's walls. As far as free will, IMO, there is no such thing unless all are allowed to exercise it. Then it becomes divine of which we all are and only then will we come to realize what life really means.

William

I personally dont believe we have to nor should go in some kind of war against evil, mostly because we will soon be utterly divided about what "evil" is.

Thanks for the caution about using the word, 'church'. They have such a hold on society that it is like walking on broken glass to criticize them. It has been the cause of many wars through out the years. I will try to be more diplomatic.
Majic