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Why Humans Reject God

 
 
Dexter78
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 02:21 pm
@Dexter78,
Quote:

I mean how could this ACTUALLY happen by mere chance?


You are assuming the governing laws of the universe could be something other than what they are for our universe. Also, the result is what is is, nothing more or less. Imagine I have a bucket with one million grains of sand, each a different color. I dump it, and it will fall according to the laws of physics. There are hundreds of trillions of possible ways the sand could ultimately fall, but none will violate the laws of physics, and ultimately the grains of sand will assume a final resting position. The fact that a particular final position occurred does not mean that there is anything meaningful or special about that particular position, and if I dump the sand again, another position will occur. Similarly, the laws of our universe allow for other possibilities besides ourselves, none violate the laws of physics, and many of them are demonstrated on our own planet, the other planets in our solar system, and on the trillions of other planets in the universe. We are just as likely to be here as anything else, and to ask why we are here instead of nothing, or the mighty Thandorian Empire, is pointless, because it assumes meaning where there is none. There is no "I shouldn't be here" or "I should be here." I am here, the fact that I am here is enough for me to enjoy it. In addition, if you think the laws of this universe imply an architect, then following that logic, a being as sophisticated as God implies an even more sophisticated architect, and so on.

Quote:
I have to be narrow-minded upon my belief of the existence of God, if I wasn't narrow-minded, I could find myself buying into the "intellectual dogma" which many atheists and agnostics project.


Dangerous thinking, a member of the KKK could defend their beliefs the same way, or a Nazi. I assume that many of your views on many are locked into place, since religion has many non-negotiable positions towards many issues. I can say with great certainty that you do not agree with all the positions that the Bible takes, yet the Bible does not allow for pick and choose. If you do not wish to consider the arguments of atheists and other non-Christians, then perform a rigorous examination of your own religion, beginning with the Bible.
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 07:54 pm
@tMeeker,
TMeeker,

I would not explicitly agree that "Existence is supremely defined by the construct which one defines for himself," but I do believe you are on the right track. But as I said, I do not feel that religion is a path that man "defines for himself", I think it is a refuge man takes when he is too timid to find his own path. In fact, it is impossible to follow religious dogma while defining one's own existence. Dogma is a code passed down through religious authority, but no one has ever found his own path through the trust in authority.

Take time to truly examine your faith and belief, cast the critical eye on it. If you find that it is not truly what you live your life around, you have made better of use of the only existence you might have had, if you find that it is truly the way, your faith will be stronger for it.

Surely it is more of a virtue to believe for the merits of belief than for the fear of God.

Surely if you are honest and true to yourself, whatever conclusions you reach would not represent something abhorrent to God.
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2007 08:14 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Mr Fight The Power,

Excellent,I do not disagree.

"I tend to wonder if life is possible without the deception however."

You are in good company then,the same problem trouble Nietzsche.

Still,with nihilism does it not point to a greater wonder,that all apparent reality is relational or as Schopenhaur said subject and object stand or fall together? The nature of both true and false relational as well,beauty uglyness and the sense of the sublime relational.I have been following your posts Mr Fight The Power,an enriching addition to these forums you are.

"Myth it can be said is the other man's religion,religion it can be said is the misinterpretation of myth." The late Joseph Campbell


Cognitive dissonance: The nihilist must admit that his truths are not actually true.

That is the central theme of philosophical thought throughout time, the dialetical progression of positive statements of objective value and the inevitable negation of skepticism. It is the battle of the subjective and the objective, and the victory of the subjective is eminent.

And thank you for your kind words.

It was the hope of finding discourse like yours that brought me to this forum.
boagie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 10:00 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
Cognitive dissonance: The nihilist must admit that his truths are not actually true.

That is the central theme of philosophical thought throughout time, the dialetical progression of positive statements of objective value and the inevitable negation of skepticism. It is the battle of the subjective and the objective, and the victory of the subjective is eminent."


Mr Fight The Power

I am not sure I entirely understand this,the struggle has been between subjective and objective,if they are understood as interdependent,they are in essence one thing,as neither can exist in the absence of the other and there relationship is apparent reality.Still, dialogue/debate is difficult in a wholistic reality.

I am going to make you envious,I have an original pamphlet from The Ministry Of Denfense Black Panther Party,with Huey Newton sitting in his chair on the cover-1968.No need to beg,I shall not part with it--------no I will not!
tMeeker
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 10:34 am
@boagie,
Dexter78, you write: "I can say with great certainty that you do not agree with all the positions that the Bible takes, yet the Bible does not allow for pick and choose."

I beg to differ and argue with you that I undoubtedly do believe EVERYTHING which the Bible teaches and conveys. In my life, the Word of God is the very essence of it all, I'm not preaching here, I'm simply stating that Christ is my very life and I will follow Him until the day I die. This means obeying EVERY word of scripture and EVERYTHING within it. Now I could sit here all day and argue with you about the truth and essential design of everything found within the Word of God.......however I assume you will argue the point that a book or source such as the Bible, cannot justify itself by claiming that it alone is the answer to everything.

-Many are called, but few are chosen.
Dexter78
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 03:22 pm
@tMeeker,
Quote:
This means obeying EVERY word of scripture and EVERYTHING within it


Ok. Does this mean you agree with this:

Leviticus 20:27 A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads

Or

Leviticus 25:15 Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him

Or do you do this:

Numbers 15:27 But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering

Or reconcile this

Lev 24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.

with

Mathew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

There are many such instances of death for minor offenses or contradictions in the Bible.
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 05:59 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Mr Fight The Power

I am not sure I entirely understand this,the struggle has been between subjective and objective,if they are understood as interdependent,they are in essence one thing,as neither can exist in the absence of the other and there relationship is apparent reality.Still, dialogue/debate is difficult in a wholistic reality.


They are most certainly not "one thing"; they stand in relation to one thing, though. At all points they oppose each other in describing reality, and it is this opposition that moves philosophy forward. Look at the original modern thinkers, Decartes, Hume, Spinoza, Leibniz, they all showed that either we cannot know the objective truth, or more importantly, that objective truth doesn't exist. In this they contributed to the argument that truth can only be found in the subjective, that reality is relational.

Any advancement of this matter, however, resulted in an upcry from moralists, who explicitly proclaimed this as an attack on the morals of the time, but one cannot doubt that they saw it as an attack on the worth of men. The response was always to erect more and more complex theories to explain that there is actually an objective truth, which in turn was only negated once again.

So in the end, the progression of thought has been a transfer from this attempt to determine objective value to the slow realization that objectives just do not exist, leaving only the subjective.

Quote:
I am going to make you envious,I have an original pamphlet from The Ministry Of Denfense Black Panther Party,with Huey Newton sitting in his chair on the cover-1968.No need to beg,I shall not part with it--------no I will not!


Nay, I will not beg, for it is only right that it rests in my possession.

Therefore I demand that you hand it over.

May I ask how you came to possess this item?
boagie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Mar, 2007 08:24 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
They are most certainly not "one thing"; they stand in relation to one thing,though. At all points they oppose each other in describing reality, and it is this opposition that moves philosophy forward. Look at the original modern thinkers, Decartes, Hume, Spinoza, Leibniz, they all showed that either we cannot know the objective truth, or more importantly,that objective truth doesn't exist. In this they contributed to the argument that truth can only be found in the subjective,that reality is relational."


Agreed,all knowing is subjective.What is this thing both subject and object stand in relation too?

"Any advancement of this matter,however,resulted in an upcry from moralists, who explicitly proclaimed this as an attack on the morals of the time,but one cannot doubt that they saw it as an attack on the worth of men. The response was always to erect more and more complex theories to explain that there is actually an objective truth,which in turn was only negated once again.

So in the end, the progression of thought has been a transfer from this attempt to determine objective value to the slow realization that objectives just do not exist, leaving only the subjective."

Perhaps we could talk of this a bit more,leaving only the subjective infers nothing of a relation. I think I am still a little confused.



The Black Panther Pamphlet,I use to get the Black Panther Paper on a regular bases from Oakland,if I remember correctly.I wish I had of thought at the time to store the papers--------------hindsight is 20/20
Dexter78
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Mar, 2007 08:31 am
@boagie,
Tmeeker

It is not "why doesn't God make us love him" that I wonder about, but instead why would he wants us to chose to love him. It would not add anything to a being that is everything, but it has required much pain and sacrifice of people for the past two thousand years. For some other religions, it's been even longer. Within the context of belief, if a person wants to express gratitude to such a being for existence, that is not difficult to understand, however for such a being to require it or be forever punished when existence was infinitely easy for the being to produce, that is indentured servitude. He requires more of others than he does of himself.

Quote:
God has to require punishment and wrath for those who do not repent. Why? Because God is just.


If God is the definition of all, than anything he did would be just, including not requiring punishing and wrath for those who don't repent. If, however, the principle of justice is outside of God's reign and he is instead bound of obey it, then he is less than omnipotent.

Quote:
Although you think that a God who created His creation for the mere purpose of glorifying Himself, is very ego-centered and self-obcessed, you probably do not have a clear defintion or view of God's essence


I have a pretty clear idea of ego-centered, and this would certainly fit the bill. If such a being has wants, such as wanting to be glorified, then the being is lacking something.

Quote:
You're searching for the answer to it all


That's too big of a goal to even attempt. I just want to understand more than I do now.
0 Replies
 
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 06:52 pm
@tMeeker,
Tmeeker
this is not actually DPMartin, I am his daughter. Just visiting only for a moment. I am only talking to you.
I realize that someone rejecting God is hurtful. As a mom I can say its like someone hurting one of my own children but there isn't anyone who can change their minds except God himself. Why waste your time with a reply? I too am confused why there are so many "athiests" appearing on here. I think another big reason why people reject God is simply because they are angry with him. Maybe it was a prayer unanswered, or a catastrophe of some sort. Whatever the reason I doubt we'll ever know. One day I hope they will find the truth, please do not let them discourage you. God is the only one you need to impress.
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Mar, 2007 09:23 pm
@tMeeker,
Christians depress me.
tMeeker
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 04:39 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
dpmartin, (or his daughter),

I would attempt to make another reply to this post, however if you will notice, the past few replies that I have constructed have been "reported" and deleted from this forum. Obviously what I say and claim is offensive to some.....I'm still pondering why we can't respond with "religious" answers in a RELIGION forum. That's one for the ages.

-the truth hurts.
boagie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 05:21 pm
@tMeeker,
Fellow associates,

This is a philosophy site,meaning the area for the discussion of religion is for the discussion of the philosophy of religion, which means outlandish or any claims are subject to dispute.The associates at this site are not domesticated cattle and ones beliefs do not entitle anyone to special treatment.This is not anyones online church,anyone looking for a complacent group to address,is in the wrong place.
Pythagorean
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Mar, 2007 02:11 pm
@boagie,
To all:

Quote:
tMeeker wrote the following:

I would attempt to make another reply to this post, however if you will notice, the past few replies that I have constructed have been "reported" and deleted from this forum. Obviously what I say and claim is offensive to some.....I'm still pondering why we can't respond with "religious" answers in a RELIGION forum. That's one for the ages.



I can find no record of any "reported post" from this thread in the moderator section of the forums. In my opinion no post from this thread has been "deleted". I would add that it is highly unusual for a post to be deleted here.

Please, feel free to make any suggestions under the "Feedback and Suggestions" forum.

And please be sure to click the "Submit Reply" button at the bottom of the page when you make a post, and make sure that your post has been submitted before you exit your browser.

Thank you very much.

--Pythagorean
0 Replies
 
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Mar, 2007 07:27 pm
@tMeeker,
tMeeker
My daughter has a sympathetic heart, and may not understand. But I can tell you that this site is relatively civil compared to most. The thing is, if you don't want to get hit, don't come out in the field. It's a part of free discussion.
Justin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Aug, 2007 09:25 pm
@dpmartin,
tMeeker wrote:
dpmartin, (or his daughter),

I would attempt to make another reply to this post, however if you will notice, the past few replies that I have constructed have been "reported" and deleted from this forum. Obviously what I say and claim is offensive to some.....I'm still pondering why we can't respond with "religious" answers in a RELIGION forum. That's one for the ages.

-the truth hurts.

This is wrong. Your posts have never been deleted, altered or otherwise trashed. Although I believe some of them should have been.

Below is your post tmeeker:

tMeeker wrote:
Funny, funny, funny......really funny. It seems that you have developed quite the potential to become a comedian one day.....maybe you should consider that? I know your type, Mr. Fight the Power and Dexter78, or maybe it's 87....I don't know, whatever. Regardless, you both are so predictable and so easily perceived to have responded with the response which you thus did. Mr. Fight the Power, you fear conformity don't you? You go to bed every night fearing that you won't stand out of the crowd. You fear this because of your inferiority complex that if no one notices you when you go about your daily routine, you will be simply forgotten when the world comes to its impending end. You are scared to death that no one will remember you......so you seek out fame by distorting the principles of "power" and your own existence becomes fully defined in rejecting everything to give you a sense of purpose. You hope people will notice if you "fight the power" of everything, including religion. Why do you do this? You are a slave to your own pride. Your pride will destroy you if you let it. Go ahead....respond to this post by simply repeating everything I say only contorting the words to the way you see them....prove me right.

You rely on "froofy" words and fancy terminology to ensure people are impressed by your demeanor and appearance. You both hide behind philosphy and your intellectual beliefs so that other people will hold the perception that you have it all figured out. But the truth is, you are utterly hopeless. You may not acknowledge to your own self. But you are. You feel your utter lonliness when you close your eyes at night, you feel your lack of purpose when you go out your door in the morning. You will irrevocably respond to this post with yet another endless contraption of "froofy" words that claim you don't need religion, nor do you need God. Why are you afraid of God? Your pride is killing your soul.

The ironic thing is the fact that I am merely a teenage punk kid who is debating you on the fact that God exists. You may be a college professor of philosphy, maybe you're a simple man who has wandered his entire life still yet to understand the meaning of it all, or maybe you live in your parent's basement. Whoever you are, it is ironic that I have already had the privledge of having the "truth" of life revealed to me.....and you will ultimately spend your entire life searching for the reason of our existence, unless the answer should be revealed to you. You fear death, don't you? The difference between us friend, is that when I face death one day, I will be smiling..........and you will be second-guessing every decision you ever made....hoping that you are right, and that there is no God. Because if there is a God............you won't be able to hide behind your philosophy anymore.

Go ahead, respond to this by repeating exactly what I say, or respond with your fancy words, or do the opposite.....since you are supposedly "Mr. Fight the Power", you probably won't respond at all just to prove me wrong. Either way, your pride will kill you and nail your courage to the sticking post.

-It's easy for you to preach atheism when you are hiding behind your computer screen.......try doing it when your looking down a gun barrel. Smile


The above is extremely Judgmental. For a person who calls themselves a Christian, your comments are certainly not in line with what Jesus would do or whats taught in the scriptures that you so boldly proclaim. I can see why you were banned from another forum.

tmeeker understand one thing please. This forum is to build, not to destroy and your words are not only an embarrassment to the Christian Faith but they are also very destructive. Comments like yours towards another member of this forum are not very nice or Christian like.

Just so you know, the best way for you to build your tree of life and fruits of the spirit is to show the people you come in contact with by example. WWD - What would Jesus do.

Here's a thought - Quit telling us all about Christianity and how we are supposed to think, and start showing us by your actions. I think people will be inclined more to follow your light if they could see it.

.... and please refrain from plotting verbal attacks on any of the members in this forum.
0 Replies
 
pokemasterat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 08:36 am
@tMeeker,
Boagie - I thought that the aim of philosophy was to discuss, not debate. Wink

Other than that.... CATFIGHT!!!

Honestly, someone should do commentary: "Oh! That's gotta hurt! the rebellious teen from the self-proclaimed close-minded corner just slapped the adult agnostic from the self-proclaimed open-minded corner with character insults! Oh, and with a beautiful comeback, he manages to get back on his feet by asserting nobody on the internet can possibly know anyhting about his life! And... what's that? IT'S A GUN! Everybody, run for your lives! Oh, but no bullets. Thank the nonexistant God! ... Hey, what did I say?"

People disbelieve in God for the same reason they disbelieve in Santa Clause. It's not pride, it's logic. It's simple reasoning. Science works, but the Bible says that the world was created in 7 periods of time, the Earth started out void and desolate, God murdered every single person on the entire planet besides Noah and his family, and demands, not only encourages: animal cruelty, murder, incest, and child-killing! Things the Bible later goes on to condemn!

At least, the Old Testament. The New Testament followers, I would say, are a little assumptive in the whole triple-omni being, but otherwise got some nifty values.

And of course, the Bible probably made a whole lot more sense when there was no theory of the Big Bang or Darwinism, but that's just a thought...
boagie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 09:18 am
@pokemasterat,
Pokemasterat,Smile

Welcome pokemasterat,glad you have chosen to join us! Thanks for the input.The on going problem is people wishing to introduce material which is not really debateable for them.There is an unwritten rule or perhaps it is written,that Christians must make a nuisance of themselves bringing there particular brand of enlightenment to the natives.This place is just loaded with Christians,and they are counting on their numbers.At anyrate, again welcome, I shall be looking for your posts!Wink
pokemasterat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2007 10:58 am
@boagie,
REALLY? So hard to tell... XDx3
I don't think numbers could possibly hurt them, either. There's safety in 'em! I was actually looking for a website I could use for statistics that were reliable, and when I found a .gov site [ Statistical Abstract ], I was like "YES!" It's very helpful. For instance, as of 2001, 76% of the US was Christian. Then, it breaks down into 20 something denominations which of course are all different in their own philosophies. So, the numbers are really only on any Christian's side if they join forces, which they don't with their actual beliefs. Surprised
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 11:34 am
@pokemasterat,
Hi all,

Pride is the process of self-elevation, and
Proud, is the product, of such
Born on the back, of a LOST generation,
Destroying each soul - doth it touch.

Pride is SELF inflicted and born in the shadow of shame. The more is one's pride - The more is one's shame.

Better to be humble with the meek, than to share the spoils with the haughty.

Thank you, and fare well.

Mark...
0 Replies
 
 

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