Free will versus God's Soveriegnty

Curious. With regards to free will it seems like the version of God as an all powerful being, oddly enough, does not have free will. One statement I saw was "The Almighty cannot lie for if he speaks it. It will be." I take it that this means if such a being willed random killing to be considered good, this it would be so. Those who believe the current system of morals is of devine origin must acknowledge that it is entirely arbitrary and that any other system proposed by such a being would be just as "good." It may seem like the ultimate form of free will but the result is always the same, it can't change because whatever the being decided prior is just as valid as whatever it decided currently, it can't be otherwise. Such a being cannot will against it's will, and it's will always manifests as the truth, it has no choice otherwise. Most monotheistic religions state that such a deity can do anything, but it seems to me that it can only do one thing. Furthermore, to extend the question reconciling an all knowing being and humans still possesing free will, how could an all-knowing being not know what it will do at all times? There is certainly no choice involved, and choice is often a stated component of free will.

Electra,

My point would be,if anyone was up to honest dialogue,that there is no such thing as free will. Because one refuses to consider the possiablity does not mean that possiablity does not exists.

Egocentric is the term I think your looking for. If you have moved out of duality as you state,that is unity,at which time there is only one,one all inclusive-------your back in the garden my dear,how did you get past God's fat cherub with his sword? Please indicate the material you downloaded that qualifies as higher consciousness,being blissfully mindless does not itself qualify.

You make a great many assumptions about someone who perhaps does not agree with you.Independent, autonomus and mistaken, in the end dear,it simply isn't true.

"Now, I have a big distate for intellectualized debate, so I tend to speak in very common language. And it is good because the truth is very simple. We can "try" all day long to achieve, gain, have, and do as the little I likes it. Or we can join in fellowship and joyful communion by remembering the other ways we are connected to EVERYTHING (through "spirit" or "God") and experience joy."

Electra,If by the above statement you are making a generality about the interconnectedness of all things,I have no difficulty with this.If however you want to box it up in your own bias, your own little god the key to realization----then we have a problem.You say you have a big distaste for intellectualized debate----perhaps because your not good at it? At any rate,with a distaste such as this why would you join a philosophy site.If you want to chant a dogma go to where they do that full time---there are bible sites all over the net.

"I am interested in the alleviation of human suffering and have experimented with various modes of consciousness as the platform for my explorations. It is amusing to me to watch people muddle around with these ideas and at the same time wonder why they cant problem solve for themselves."

You and the Dali Lama,are you then, a buddhist? Amused is not the compassionate reaction to peoples suffering.


"I" don't exist in the way "I" imagined myself to be: an individual entity confronted by a chaotic universe. I am it and it is me. My "I" found comfort there. In that place. The fear of death and catastrophe disappeared. I joined into a beingness that was the whole dream of this universe and at last felt at home, content, free, immortal.[/quote]

My dear if you are one,there is nothing else,thus nothing to talk about and no one else to talk about it with------------OUM! like the Buddha, have you decided to stay on here until all animated beings are liberated?


There is no mind absolute or free will, but the mind is determined for willing this or that by a cause which is determined in its turn by another cause, and this one again by another, and so on to infinity.
(Benedictus de Spinoza, 1673) What a delightful heretic!

I have noticed in some biblical sites that they have areas sectioned off where only believers are allow enterance------please believers only.If the moderators choose this approach for certain sections of this site I would honour such an approach.

Dexter78

There is also the consideration that He chooses what to say, and He chooses what not to say. And is well aware of the result. But once He says it, He has agreed to keep it, or make it so. In other words, a responsibility of power. If He has agreed to give mankind the power of choice, He will keep His Word, no matter what the consequences are of the chooser's choices are. And all the choices of mankind have consequence that really do not interfere with the Will of God. Other than His disappointment in some of the choices mankind makes. Choose to face God now, while you yet breath, and mercy can be found, that is His given Word. Choose to face Him after passing from this world, and the consequences may not be so good. That is also His given Word.


**********
Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
**********

If such an omnipotent being chooses, this of course suggests that their are choices to choose from, and for it to be a choice means that there exists a possibility that an alternative path would be chosen. This would mean that such a being would not always know what it would do, it would not be certain of which selection it will make. However, if the being is all knowing, then again there is no choice, only one option. It is a question to ask whether a perfect being would even desire to create or choose anything, or have any desire at all, since being perfect, it is not without anything, and any alteration suggests that there is more than it's current state, which contradicts the notion of being all, being perfect. The rest of the comment, as for facing such a being in life or death clearly presuposes that such a being exists and even more so that a very specific notion of the being is the correct one. Before attemption to prove the existence of such a deity or deities, I would like to first see someone prove that I am not God. Of course I am not claiming to be such a being, it's just a thought experiemnt. I don't think this can be done without resorting to ethereal, abstract concepts that are entirely subjective in nature.

Dexter78
thanks for the response, give me a few to respond

Whether it has been forbidden by nature or God, I cannot fathom any course of action that man can take that is not determined by those factors that long preceeded his existence.

To me, free choice necessitates that man be a contributing creator to himself, but that is nonsensical.

EDIT: In my opinion, there is no such thing as freedom, as all things exist presently in the only form in which they could possibly exist.

Dexter78
"If such an omnipotent being chooses, this of course suggests that their are choices to choose from, and for it to be a choice means that there exists a possibility that an alternative path would be chosen. "

Nay my fine feathered friend. The omnipotent being has already chosen mankind, to come to Him and to know Him. And not would be, but could be, and has not.

"This would mean that such a being would not always know what it would do, it would not be certain of which selection it will make. However, if the being is all knowing, then again there is no choice, only one option. "

What is, does not necessarily mean it has to be chosen, just because it is. But that which is not chosen, is left to be, only to get the desired result from the chosen.

"It is a question to ask whether a perfect being would even desire to create or choose anything, or have any desire at all, since being perfect, it is not without anything, and any alteration suggests that there is more than it's current state, which contradicts the notion of being all, being perfect."

What if the Living God was to give Life, Life eternal like His own?

"The rest of the comment, as for facing such a being in life or death clearly presuposes that such a being exists and even more so that a very specific notion of the being is the correct one. Before attemption to prove the existence of such a deity or deities, I would like to first see someone prove that I am not God. Of course I am not claiming to be such a being, it's just a thought experiemnt. I don't think this can be done without resorting to ethereal, abstract concepts that are entirely subjective in nature."

This may not prove it, but consider this. Your are not here breathing of your own doing, nor of your own will. Also, all that you ever posses be it from your heart, and mind and anything else such as house, car, what ever you can put your hand to you only get to use, not to keep, for you can take none of it with you. Therefore you are no owner of anything but the decisions you made with what you where given charge.

Keep digging, keep searching.
Wisdom, knowledge, and understanding of the Lord are much greater than any valued item in the earth, or in the world. It must be sought after with great passion, love, and desire. It takes many hours, days, weeks, years of meditation, for a morsel of understanding. Pursuit of these things is like a gold rush miner that leaves everything, spends everything, to suffer a hostile environment, and spends all his waking hours panning for a little gold, how much more valuable is wisdom, knowledge, and understanding of the Lord?

**********
Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
**********

Mr. Fight the Power
You can expect me to disagree.

But what do you say is the destiny of mankind, and why do they even continue to breath?

**********
Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
**********

There is no destiny to mankind, in that we exist to follow or fulfill some purpose.

We continue to breath because:

1. Most people enjoy and look forward to continued existence.

2. Fatalism is a behavior that is particularly poor at reproducing itself.

If this suggests that the result of this would be something greater than what was started with, then my original statement, that there can be something greater than a supreme being, is valid. If this is the case, then why could not God have a God, etc.



This statement, to prove that I am not God, begins with the assumption that I am not God, assumes it is correct, then goes from there. Using such a method, one could "prove" anything, whether it is true or not.



I agree that what is is not the result of something chosen before. But, you state that the omnipotent being has already chosen mankind. Was there a possibility that the being would not choose mankind? Was He thinking, "I may choose mankind, I may not. I'm not sure yet." In fact, of all that God is said to have done, was there any chance that He would have done otherwise? If no, then he has no choice.

Mr. Fight the Power

"There is no destiny to mankind, in that we exist to follow or fulfill some purpose."

Then what do you say is the destiny of mankind, tho, as you say, it is not to fulfill some purpose?

"We continue to breath because:"
"1. Most people enjoy and look forward to continued existence."

Of what, their bodies, their minds, their hearts, or their souls?

"2. Fatalism is a behavior that is particularly poor at reproducing itself."

I'm sorry, but to be sure, I'll have to ask you to explain.

**********
Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
**********

The destiny of mankind is to fulfill whatever role the totality of existence, the sum of all other concepts and objects, allows of it.

In other words, mankind has no discernable or relevant destiny.



We breath because life replicates itself, and those who chose not to breath did not replicate themselves.

Science had long realized that there is limitations to their findings and have concluded the existence of a power beyond our comprehension using ordinary scientific tools. Kabbalah however did find the method to enter that realm. Look here:

http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/pressa/Science_comes_home_to_spirituality-at_last_JN.htm


I found a very good analysis and explanation for the existence of the GOD. Look at this article to understand the concept of the supreme power. "There is none else beside HIM"

http://www.kabbalah.info/engkab/shamati_eng/shamati1.htm

A little perspective

...Michael Gazzaniga, a professor of psychology at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and author of "The Ethical Brain," notes that within 10 years, neuroscientists may be able to show that there are neurological differences when people testify about their own previous acts and when they testify to something they saw. ...

...Libet argued that this leaves 100 milliseconds for the conscious self to veto the brain's unconscious decision, or to give way to it - suggesting, in the words of the neuroscientist Vilayanur S. Ramachandran, that we have not free will but "free won't.". ...

...The legal implications of the new experiments involving bias and neuroscience are hotly disputed. Mahzarin R. Banaji, a psychology professor at Harvard who helped to pioneer the I.A.T., has argued that there may be a big gap between the concept of intentional bias embedded in law and the reality of unconscious racism revealed by science. . ...

... "You can have a horrendously damaged brain where someone knows the difference between right and wrong but nonetheless can't control their behavior," says Robert Sapolsky, a neurobiologist at Stanford. "At that point, you're dealing with a broken machine, and concepts like punishment and evil and sin become utterly irrelevant. Does that mean the person should be dumped back on the street? Absolutely not. You have a car with the brakes not working, and it shouldn't be allowed to be near anyone it can hurt.". ...

[...more]

http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge205.html


Reason is the enemy of faith.
Luther, Martin - :eek: