Free will versus God's Soveriegnty

tmeeker,

Personally in order to decide if one has free will, it seems to me one has to understand ones circumstance.If you understand that the world is your context and that context defines,just as evolutionary development is dependent upon the relatively constent physical environment.Understanding this,you might appreciate that all is reaction,reaction to a given context[the physical world].There is only a choice of the reaction but react you will.You do not even have a choice not to react,for that too would be reaction to context.So,no,man does not have free will.He has more choice perhaps than the other animals but whatever he does is reaction to---------to what? Too context.So,free will vs God's soveriegnty,well,there is no free will.

Tmeeker, not bad

Back at the garden, God gave mankind the power to eat of every tree, including the Tree of Life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But He instructed mankind to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But yet mankind was still able to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It is the power of God to even give access to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Ordained by God's Word. For what good is power in the hands of some one that would do what he can rather then what he should. Mankind was given dominion over that which was on the earth, not ownership, but dominion. Which is a responsibility to the Word of God for the Word of God has dominion over mankind and gave dominion to mankind, if you are born of mankind you are automatically responsible to the Word of God, tough noogies, if you don't like it. Mankind is destined to this relationship with the Word of God. When it come to Truth the decision is not yours. Whether it is the Truth or not is not yours to decide, for it is the Truth no matter what. The decision is whether to meet your maker now, or later. In other words, turn to the Word of God while one still has breath. Or face Him later. The destiny in a sense is the same. But will it be in mercy and grace, or in judgment.


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First is God The Father that which all things are from, even His Word.
If we look at ourselves, in knowing that we are created in His image. This is not to say that two arms, two legs, and a head is that image. For what ever configuration of bone and flesh the Lord saw fit for us, would not change that we are mankind.
As in the trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There is The Father from which all that there is, is from. The Son, His Word, the Truth the Way the Life the Voice of the Lord, the first from the Father. And the Holy Spirt by which all the will of the Almighty is done. Thus the trinity in one.
The source of the expression that will be executed, the expression of the source that will be executed, and the execution according to the expression of the source.
As in the image of God, mankind can come up with an idea, express that idea, and do it. That is how we govern ourselves, make bridges, make movies, fly to the moon, find the short cut to work, and solve the plumbing problem with the toilet. Each individual soul is one in three parts that differentiates mankind from any other Life manifesting organism in the earth. Things like the heart, mind, and body accommodate this ability for mankind.
Second is God The Son, His Word, made manifest in the flesh as Jesus the Christ who proclaimed God His Father many times. The Word of God is from God, a part of God, and is God. Just as your word, is from you, a part of you, and is you.
His Word is Truth for if He speaks it, it will be. The Almighty cannot lie for if He speaks it. It will be. Through His Word is that which all may know Him and all of creation obeys Him. For the Truth is the Truth no matter what the Truth is.
Whether all mankind is aware of it, or not. It is still the Truth.
Third is the Holy Spirit or Spirit Of God, which moved upon the face of the waters, sealing us unto our salvation, and pretty much executes the will of God the Father after He speaks it. The Father Speaks, the Spirit executes, and it is so. According to science community after the big bang all was like dust. So it is possible that all matter and space where at rest or evenly balanced like as if all the air on earth was the same temperature with even amount of humidity and pressure. Then The Spirit moved on the face of the waters. Like a
block of molding clay. There it is, God makes stuff happen, according to what He said.

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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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Moderators,

Do not some of these postings qualify as religious spam? There does not seem to be any philosophical content whatsoever.I like to feel I am debating with another person not God himself,you just know he is going to cheat.Some sites have a policy of not allowing non-philosophical postings on their sites,as matter of quality control.So lets hear from the administration on this one, one way or another.

Come over to the darkside!

Nobody likes exposure to the Truth, that does not seek it.


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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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boagie, no this is not spam. Please review the following: SPAM.

Based on the nature of the discussion, it's correctly in the right category. I have found no spam, nor any reason for a reprimand in this discussion. For those of you who want to talk religion, this particular category is the one to do it in.

Philosophy applies to everything. Just because it may or may not be in line with our own philosophy, doesn't mean it's wrong. This is a philosophy forum for discussion on any area where philosophy is needed and it most certainly pertains to Religion. There may be other forums out there that have rules regarding the exclusion of religion or religious topics, however this is not one of them.

So long as the discussion doesn't directly attack or belittle an individual, it is accepted here. That's what makes this different. We cannot limit Philosophy to certain criteria or to a certain group of people when it applies to everyone... everywhere... and everything we do... including religion.

This doesn't mean that I or anyone else has to agree with these posts, but for those who want to travel down this road of discussion, they are more than free to do so.

boagie, shake it off, don't sweat it, and jump into those discussions that best fit your energy at the time. Rise above that which isn't a part of your world and this type of discussion won't even bother you.

Justin.

Ok Justin,but I believe the word of God to the believer is undabateable what function does it then indeed serve? I shall take your advice however and simply avoid such contexts. Thanks for replying!

Just because someone is a believer in the Word of God... wait, what exactly is the word of God? Is it the Bible? Not really because in the beginning was the word before a page was ever written?... My point is that there is a lot of Philosophy tied to religion and a lot of discussion to be had regarding it.

You see, if you feel your philosophy is right by your perception... that's ok. Philosophy is the "sum of what we know", based on what we experience and perceive. It's ok to disagree and it's ok not to debate as well.

Regardless, thanks for posting and I appreciate your understanding.

Justin,

Perhaps we could just call it philosophy and hope nobody notices! This site makes no pretence of being a purely philosophical site---------right? At anyrate I have done all I can for the cause---------carry on Christian soldiers!! Sorry Justin,its not really an understanding but a resignation.

well put, Mr. Justin

Hi Y'all,

It just occured to me,how could there be free will in the presence of an omniscient being.This onmiscient being is suppose to have given man free will,that then would make him less than all powerful,then the jerk is going to punish you for useing it.If this thread did not serve as an intellectual excerise it would indeed be a foolish dialogue.I am going back to my room now.

Silly is as silly does!!

Free Will is not so simple to define. Read this article here it will give you another insight. Free Will

Neshama,

Free will may not be easy to define but why not take a crack at it if you beleive it to be so.Don't give me reference material,there is an unlimted supply of such.What are your thoughts on the subject? Are you ready to take a stand on it.Sorry if this is coming across as offensive,it is not intended as such.It you are familar with the materials you have posted here,surely you have an opionion,I am all ears.

Actually people do let themselves be lead by the nose,why pose the question free will versus the soveriengnty of the unicorn[god].Why not place it into relation to something real, like the physical world.Schopenhaur once frowned on philosophy that never touched the ground,its source and referance point.

It is a dreamy moveing not quite thing only the illusion is the grasp of the ring.

Ya know there boagie, if you think it is so unfair, you can always give up your free will, and dedicate your life to the will of God. Or would you rather He had forced you to?
Everything else around you does not have the free will to not obey the Word of God. Nether the earth nor the vegetation, nor all other flesh can disobey the Word of God given to it. His Word given to the jungle is the law of the jungle but is not for the souls of mankind. Tho mankind dwell in the flesh and in the jungle, mankind is not be a servant of the flesh or jungle. But you have the free will to do so.

mankind is to walk with the Voice of the Lord, by choice, that's all.

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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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dpmartin,

Because you proclaim the existence of human free will, does not make it so,proclamations belong to theology,not philosophy.If you state a premise in philosophy you really need back it up.I realize this expectation does not apply to theological pronouncements but I think people here are still trying to pretend this thread is philosophy,which of course it is not,your post simply underlines this fact.As to the soul,a very useful term, its power continues to be in remaining forever undefined.

Have you ever taken some of your own writings perhaps on Christianity, and counted the number of abstract undefined terms that compose your thinking,it might be a worthwhile enterprize.In the mean time,if you can't philosophize try not to get in the way.Actually,why don't you try this stuff on a biblical site,or are you here as a fisher of men?

That which is not lost,can be most difficult to find.

There's all kinds of things you can do with your consciousness evidentally! I wonder how much ALL of this conversation is about the brain/mind complex? Seems like even abstract ideals, like "God" are somewhat a concept in which we can "have an experience" if we want to? In other states of consciousness, we are not having an experience with that notion, but with something else. So it seems anyway tonight.

What does it mean when we say we are sentient? What does it mean if we can think there is a mind, body, spirit complex? Is it all based on thought wave energy? If so, then there is nothing at all and it is an illusion.

Most times it seems as if it is ALL true.

Electra,

"What does it mean when we say we are sentient? What does it mean if we can think there is a mind, body, spirit complex? Is it all based on thought wave energy? If so, then there is nothing at all and it is an illusion."

All the more reason biblical certainty is annoying.It is a dreamy moving not quite thing,only the illusion is the grasp of the ring!

Does anyone actually want to make a case for free will or determinism either might prove interesting,and be in keeping with the topic.

I am headed for the light on God's back porch!

\

"Free Will" vs "God Sovereignity": Two different states of consciousness is all that means to me.

Electra,

These two states of consciousness you speak of are to be acknowledge without further dialogue---------------am I reading you right? Philosophy has been struggling with this topic for thousands of years,why did they not think to just drive around it,or simply refuse to acknowledge it---those silly Greeks.



It is a dreamy moveing not quite thing,only the illusion is the grasp of the ring.

Why struggle, when you can do whatever you want to do: give into a Supreme Will and be happy or run around exuding your free will and experience pain?

In my experience, if one attempts to discover their "individual" True Will, it always leads to unity consciousness and service to the One. A small minded egoic person can assume all day long that they are independent and autonomous, being free of any underlying connections to source energy and others--but in the end this is simply untrue.

I can only make comment based on my own personal experience. When I was disconnected from what we call God or Spirit, I was miserable and experiencing nothing but "karma". When I gave up my own little ideas and started a process of downloading higher consciousness, I moved out of conflictive duality.

Now, I have a big distate for intellectualized debate, so I tend to speak in very common language. And it is good because the truth is very simple. We can "try" all day long to achieve, gain, have, and do as the little I likes it. Or we can join in fellowship and joyful communion by remembering the other ways we are connected to EVERYTHING (through "spirit" or "God") and experience joy.

I am interested in the alleviation of human suffering and have experimented with various modes of consciousness as the platform for my explorations. It is amusing to me to watch people muddle around with these ideas and at the same time wonder why they cant problem solve for themselves.

"I" don't exist in the way "I" imagined myself to be: an individual entity confronted by a chaotic universe. I am it and it is me. My "I" found comfort there. In that place. The fear of death and catastrophe disappeared. I joined into a beingness that was the whole dream of this universe and at last felt at home, content, free, immortal.