The name God.

In my atheistic and existentialist oppinion god is a delusion, born of fear and superstition. The dream of the death man gave us the impression of the afterlife, an idea that the narcisistic ungrateful bipid has not been able to sake off. As Feuerbach cleverly pointed in his master piece "the essence of christianity" only the "stupid or the fainted hearted" (and i am quoting, not getting aggressive) can denny that earlier concepts of god are but anthropological constructions. These anthropological constructions evolved with human consciousness and understanding. Each representation of god is but a representationn of the values of the society that constructed the gods. So we have the animism and totem of the primitive society, the war thirsty warrior gods of the great mythical times and now...the benevolent and all powerful monotheistic god of all current major world religions (discounting buddhism, which opperates without a big guy). NOw, all religions contradict each other, because they were created in different cultures, and likesay, it is not god that created man in his image, but viceversa. So if all concepts of god are anthropological constructions, which is an evidence, why shouldn't god itself be so. At the end of the day a subject is the sum of its predicates. And no matter how we look at it, all of the predicates attributed to god, are anthropological constructions. This makes the subject god invalid. A little like a square round or the king of france, an empty formulism which represents human fear and narcissism. At the start of science we believed to be the centre of the universe, with elephants holding the sky, the more we learnt the more insignificant our place in the universe became, and yet, we must be inmortal, there's gotta be a god. But what do you mean by god, the first cause? why should this cause be the universe in itself...why should you call it god, what do you mean by god, once it is stripped of the anthropomorphically constructed adjetives you ascribe to it? The universe, the big bang? That the concept of god is univesal is undeniable, but for that to establish it as true, there is a long explanation that has never been given and will never be, because god is a delusion.

I like the concept that religion and gods are anthropological constructions of the human mind. It is extremely hard to argue against this, I have been trying to think of a logical argument, but can't. The only argument I can give you is that the concept of God was instilled in man when god gave man knowledge. I think this applies to monotheistic and polytheistic gods. Although the polytheists knew there gods existed because they interacted with them, or so they thought.

However, I can give some logical arguments to some of what you typed. When you mention the first cause, there is a reason that the universe itself can't be it's own cause.

Aquinas' devoloped this argument whith the aide of Aristotle. To begin, you can't have an effect without a cause (of course). You can not have an endless regression of cause and effect, it has to start somewhere, and the uncaused cause is where it starts.

Another way to look at this is with sets. This is the way my philosophy instructor explained it to us. If you have one set of things (set1), there is nothing inside set1 that can be the creator of set1, since nothing inside set1 existed before the set. Therefore there must be something outside set1 that created set1. Now, our universe of space-time is a set. So there must be something outside our universe of space-time that created it.

This is off topic, but have you ever read Kierkegaard?

The word is not the thing,even when spoken in its native context.It expresses a connotation which is itself open and subjective.The three great religions of the middle east all have a different names for the same biblical god,and so,cannot get along.What was it sweet William did say,"A rose by any other name------------------------would smell as sweet!!!! Someone strongly invested in a name you might say,are making a catagorical mistake,because catagory itself,is a mistake.

If I may

By ancient terms, and should be understood today, a god is a provider. A god of, is the provider of. Proclaimed by it's followers or believers, whether they be seekers of the Truth, or be deceived, or be deceivers.
Do not diminish the importance of a name, even in the world names are given authority, and by the authority of the name is power given. For example the president of the U.S. is given authority to execute the powers which is given by the constitution. Therefore if the president gives an sealed order to a general, the general must execute that order which is given. For the general is under the authority of the president. Or a CEO and those employed, or a Dictator, or a Pharaoh, or a Emperor. And if those under such authority do not execute the order then by the power given to the authority, the rebellious are removed.
So the question is, what name is given authority over all things, by the provider of all things, the One True God. There has to be only one provider of all things, and one authority or name given, for there is only one source of all things. And it is quit apparent that the provider of all things provides Life for there is Life. Provides Truth for there is Truth, and provides the Way, for there is a appropriate way to do anything appropriate. Therefore the provider of Life must be alive or a Living God for in order to give Life, He would have to have the power of Life.
If one seeks to live beyond the breath of the flesh, then it would be wise to seek out the provider of Life, or the Living God and the name given by the provider of all things, especially Life, that is given. For one leaves this world by oneself, and if the power and authority to Live is not given, one has bigger problems then keeping the breath one had.
Has the provider of all things, who has set them in order, and has demonstrated His wisdom and power in providing Life in countless forms, even mankind become stupid? Or is mankind out of the order and run amuck with his own desires rather then the will of the One who has made him.
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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.

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DPMartin,

It would seem you have no problem with catagory,you have your God boxed and ready for market.I assume this is the Christian God,yes? What of the other Gods,the Gods of the misled? Sorry,It is obvious I think that you are one of the faithful.There really isn't much room for dialogue is there.Are the characteristics of your God really as apparent as the characteristics of say,the CEO of general motors.From what I can gather he/she/it has a bad temperament and in need of some people skills.Don't be to angry with me you might well have expected the devil to jump in.If there are any aspects of this topic which are debateable in your estimation,then please indicate what they might be.

boagie:
Why thank you. I 've never bee accused of being organized enough to market anything. And oh my God, yes, you busted me, I believe in my God.
God the Father the Almighty, through His Son, Jesus the Christ, and in His Holy Spirit.
And by the by what does a CEO's temperament have to do with what I posted? And yes, your correct, I don't see any substance in what you have just posted to debate.


nice picture
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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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dpmartin,

Is it possible for one to have developed a robust relationship with "the provider" without knowing what name to give to it?

Is it possible to accept its nourishment and healing and light if we then refuse to accept all Christian and Jewish names and orthodoxies? Or do we still 'ignore' it and 'lie' about it even though we seem to be infused with it?

It seems to me that we are born pronouncing without knowing. Often, what children and the unlearned have said they themselves did not know. The Messiah is not the orator -he just opens his mouth and thereby creates "the way" by breaking free of the establishments of oratory and the rules of spoken language.

And I don't think I am exaggerating when I say that most Americans have not read the authoritative founding documents. Yet they implicitly believe in the power of their government. Does this render their belief meaningless?

Like the body of man, and like the world itself, the representations in language are, in my opinion, limited, contingent things. The concepts of 'eternity' and 'soul' are problematic for the world precisely because their essence can not be captured in a name, or in language (or in the sciences).

You say that:

"mankind [is] out of the order and run amuck with his own desires".

You may be right if by that you mean that the problem of the lack of religion today is ultimately a problem of communication (i.e. the church is, from the standpoint of post-modernity, a pre-modern relic which refuses to update its words - of course it wouldn't matter if the church did update its words because the people are so illterate they have fallen to the level of pre-modern atheism), but everytime Christianity tries to be more popular it always ends by becoming smaller.

Alas, amidst diffusion and silence, the soul and its divinities go on.

Pythagorean
thanks for the response: well said

Bottom line? One can know the Word of God without knowing the name, but there is only one name given.

As fare as limitation of languages, I don't necessarily disagree but, it is never impossible in any language to tell the Truth.

And America? I don't disagree either, your talking about a society that honors Hollywood actors and sports figures more then those who have defended their freedom to do so. It is a difficult society when is comes to getting them to understand something unchanging when all they look for is something new to consume.

The church is the church, anything left in the care of mankind always seems to come unraveled from it's original intent or purpose. But there is always the possibility of renewal or a new branch of sorts.

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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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For thousands of years humans have been plagued with the idea of god. Many have spent their entire lives pondering over whether there is or isn't a God. Those lives were wasted lives. There is no answer for God, except the one you make in your mind. God, just like other creations of the human psyche (such as the concept of time), is merely an answer to the unexplainable.

Humans have always used some form of "god" to explain the unexplainable. It began with apparent supernatural events. To a rudimentary being, such as a nomad 3000 years ago, a bolt of lightening, or an enormous ball of heat emitting blinding light (the sun), would seem very supernatural. How could nomads possible explain such things? Their only way to explain the unexplainable was to invent something to take its place. The sun became a "god". Lightening became a god's power. This is how the idea of "god" came to be. Their was merely a necessity to explain the unexplainable. Human's always seek to understand their surroundings, their world. It is the natural thing to do. Eventually this necessity to understand lead to religions. Religions spawned from these believes. Polytheism was the first form of believe. It began, just like the example of the nomad. Someone saw something amazing and BAM!! It must be a "god", "I cant do that so it must be something much more powerful than me, now I will worship it and hopefully it will like me, and use it's power to help make my hardship filled life less difficult". These are the words of the original humans, the nomads, and the eventual nomad/farmers. This is how they thought. This is why they brought the concept of "religion" and of "god" to life.

Humans always seek to make things more complex and more complicated, it is due mostly in part to the ego. Humans always seek to perform better then there neighbors. They seek to be smarter, stronger, more equipped. The ego, the human nature, is what led to even more ideas of religion. More complicated and more complex ideas.

Hundreds of years passed, until at some time in a land that is current day Egypt some slaves were tired of being oppressed, they couldn't find meaning in their lives and they seeked to understand why the "gods" favored their oppressors over them. So they used their own God. They called that God Yahweh. These people were the Jews. Whether or not the story of Moses and the ten commandments is true to life, does not matter. The point is, the original Jews invented Yahweh, in an attempt to find meaning in their lives, and as a lasting belief that a "god" would fight on their side against their oppressors and against the other so-called "gods". So this was the beginning for using the idea of "god" to not only explain the supernatural, but also to give people hope.

Since this "hope" was conjured by the human mind it is false hope. Just like the Jews used Jesus to give their lives meaning and to give them hope during their oppression under the corrupt Pharisees and brutal Roman government people began using this false hope more and more. This popularity even spans into today. The current world religions are all overly thought, highly exaggerated Explanations for the unexplainable, and they are full of false hope.

Most religions are based on guilt. "If you do this then you will go to hell". Sayings like this one are what keep people hooked into these religions. The religions give people false hope, they claim that if people perform rituals, "pray", and they worship "God" then they will be sent to a magical place called heaven when they die, and everything there will be perfect.

I am not here to tell you that God does not exist and that religion is evil. But I am here to say that if God exists then there is no possible way for anyone living on this planet to know that. Therefore, no one knows what happens when you die. We will all know all the answers when we die. Death is the most unexplainable thing there is, and until you die, you will never know what is on the other side of the metaphysical door that they call death. So knowing that you will never find the answer to the existence of God, then is it not best to just not worry about it? If it is not broken then don't fix it.

Religion can be a good thing. But religion should not be used to explain the beginning of the world or what happens to you when you die. Religion should only exist to bring people closer as a community, and to aid people in their time of suffering. But instead religion is used as a false hope. It is un-healthy to believe in false hope. False hope blinds the senses and leaves one open to manipulation. It is best to view the world from a more logical and open mind set. If everyone did this, then there would be no crime, no wars, and no hardships.

The best way to view your life, is not through religion (but if that is what comes easiest to you then fine, use religion to ready yourself for the next step). Your should use religion to boost your mind into a mind that is ready and open to love and share with everyone else logically. It is the ego, the believe that "I am better then you", and "my beliefs are right yours are wrong". It is these ideals that tear society apart. If every one realized that it feels wonderful to love and to help others then the world would be a perfect place.

You were born onto this planet for one reason or another. If you can reason and you are human, then you have the "ability". You have the ability to live your life and make decisions the way you see fit. Now knowing this, you can choose one of two paths. You can decide to do your best, do good things for others, lead a law abiding life, be a building block for a better tomorrow(a perfect world), treat others with kindness, and in doing this, do what makes you fell complete and happy. Or, you can choose the other path (since you do have the ability). You can chose the path of crime, pain, and suffering. You can choose to lead a terrible life or you can choose to lead a righteous one. The chose is yours, you have been given the ability.
I realize that this ideal sounds great if you live a good childhood, you have money, you are generally free, but how does this sound to a starving boy in Africa? Well that is the problem. This is just a start. This is information for everybody, but it is expected that the ones that lead fairly good lives will take this information, and use it to become successful, so that they may use their success and the opportunities that they have been given, by chance, to aid the ones that do not have the opportunity. The ones that have the ability but not the opportunity.

To the starving boy in Africa, or anywhere for that matter, I say to you, do your best in everything you can. Chance has had its way with you and now you must dig your self out of hardship. Through hard work and determination there still is an opportunity for success, there still is a chance to lead a fulfilled and happy life.

I tell you, the suffering of the world, no matter who you are, fear not your suffering, but work through it. Never give up. Come up with a dream, a desire for success, and work towards that dream. Be good to your fellow humans, and stand up for what is right. Never give up on your self, and worry not about death, for in the end of your life, when you die, then things will be worked out in some way or another, and it is very probable that if you did your best to lead a good life, a life of happiness, and if you were constantly trying to make the world a better place by helping others, then you need not worry about death because only good can come from good, and inevitably, only evil can come from evil, so stay away from things that are bad (thankfully we humans have a conscience and laws to help use determine what is right and wrong).

So lead good lives, and for those that have failed to do this. Worry not, for you still have a chance. Your chance of happiness after death is up to you. Just as your life is up to. If you have done evil things, things that have hurt others, things that are truly wrong, then you should stop this very moment and you should heed my words. "You have been born with the ability to live good lives." So start right now, I know it may not be easy, but it is possible. Try to use what is left of your life to undo the wrongs you have done, and make this world a better place.

The biggest point to remember, if you have learned anything from this paper, is "Do not worry about things that you have no control over". Do not worry about the unexplainable. Do not worry about the existence of God or what happens when you die because it is bound to happen. Everyone dies, that is the way of life. All you should do is strive to lead good lives, lives that make your life happy and fulfilled, and lives that make the lives of others better. When it comes to religions and beliefs, believe what you want to believe, but remember, your life is what you make it to be, and death is inevitable, so don't over complicate things, just learn to understand that you will never know the answers until you reach the end of your life, and you die. So don't fix it if its not broken, and use the ability to live and act, to lead happy, successful, fulfilled lives.

Some very interesting posts in this thread on such a controversial subject. Also, I'd like to welcome the new users to the forum.

TimeTraveler25- is this a paper you had done yourself?

TimeTraveler25:
Thanks for the response, just read your posting, plenty said here, will respond ASAP

Very interesting thread, its my kind of topic indeed.

Not having read timetravelers post completely, I'm unable to respond to it as of yet, sorry.

The original opening to this thread is 'the importance of the name of God', basically, I believe it to be anyway.

I know loads of names for the God of the Hebrews and the God of the Christians and in my experience it is important for worship reasons, you dont want to dial the wrong number, now do you? Just kidding. But yes authority comes by the name, but its more to do with who the name belongs to. So if you are praying to Jesus, or the Father, I feel that it is OK to get away with not addressing him directly by his official titles, after all, he is God!

Even outside of superstitious religions, naming things gives you power over them. It gives you confidence in knowledge, and extinguish confusion, also, in a Biblical sense its a spiritual law.

The real issue here is not 'is it relevant?', because for those it concerns, yes it bloody well is! But if EL SHADEI really does exist in the capacity that the Christians and the Hebrews believe in him then the Names are so important you wouldn't ever be able to get your head round it! Also in that case there definitely isn't an ''all roads lead to heaven'' clause either. Just read the relevant doctrines of all the religions of the world and see their incompatibility. It however is only possible if all the other religions are in fact false and God is scratching his head wondering what the hell every ones been going on about for thousands of years.

dpmartin, nice to meet you.

TimeTravaler25 thanks, busy on Mon's and Tue's

First half or so seems to be borrowed from atheism/science that I have seen before. No offence but there seems to be no understanding of , I will do, and it is done. Which separates the men from the boys, if I may use the term. More to the point, separates the Word of God from other proclaimed gods. Which is the fear of all mankind, and is the confidence of those who seek God's mercy.

The second half or so reads like a politically correct commentary from a miss America contestant. I still don't feel all warm and fuzzy inside by your use of, don't worry be happy.


But what interests me is why the statement:
"if God exists then there is no possible way for anyone living on this planet to know that."

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Pilgraimshost same, looking forward to it.
Enjoyed your posting
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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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dpmartin,
Grace and Peace to you.

I wonder if you could help me out, I am lost as to the sense of 'I will do' and 'it is done'. Care to shed some light on that?

And I would like to add that Aquinas does note that God can indeed be understood by reason alone. But then, he goes on to say that the 'fullness of God' can only be known through what I understand to be scripture and revelation.


--Pythagorean

Pythagorean, May the Lord be with you also.


To go straight to that which is written "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3: And God said". His Word is His commandment, and it comes to pass. He speaks it, and it is so. His Word is the Way in which He reveals Himself, His Will to His creation and through which His creation knows Him, in His Spirit.


I would agree in that mankind has the reason to understand, or the capability to ponder the Truth. But to know the Living God is through the revelation of His Word, which is the Truth. In the Truth can mankind come to realize God. Just as you know someone through their words and actions in accordance to their words.

The real relationship is the revaluation and fulfillment of the Word of God. The scriptures are a testimony of a people's relationship with their God. The revaluation and fulfillment of the Word of their God, in the ins and outs of King David, and from the revelation to Adam, of the fulfillment in Jesus the Christ. And to those who want a relationship with the Living God, it would be wise to stick their face in it, and learn the nature of their God.

But there are many who do not know of the scriptures, nor have ever read the scriptures, or flat out refuse to believe that the scriptures are a valid document. But the key to that is, if one is with God, then God is with them. And the only way to prove God, is that He would choose to reveal Himself through you. As He has done with His people.

Hope this answers your questions.

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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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dpmartin,
Sorry for my delay in responding. That was an inspiring post.

The problem I have is that God has revealed himself to me and I'm not all that familiar with scripture. So where does that leave me? Or, where does that leave the scriptures? My encounters with God are indeed confirmed by the great examples in the old testament but was not initiated by them. My experiences leave me in total sympathy with those who follow scripture but I am left to conclude that a 'universal' conception of God is valid.

--Pythagorean

Pythaporean
good question

Let me ask you this first. What do you; mean by," a 'universal' conception of God." ?


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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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dpmartin,

By a universal conception of God I mean that there is a living God who resides in, or is discovered in the nature of things and who can be referred to or encountered outside of any one particular doctrine. I believe for example when the native American Indians called upon their "great spirit" they could have possibly been referring to the same God as Christians and Jews encounter. So a universal conception of God would cover all of those instances where people have found Truth by nature as well as by scripture. That the revelation of God's existence is always possible, though seldom achieved, by any man no matter what his background.

Of course the discovery of God, of an infinite intelligence in the universe, no matter who or where the source of discovery, can always be affirmed by the examples in the Bible. The historical example of the Jews as a people of God is no more than an example of a people who carry a True relationship with the nature of things (albeit a dynamic and very full relationship). Theoretically, I believe, that anyone can experience a True relationship with the nature of things until the living God reveals its existence to them - that such a relationship was not exclusive to the ancient Hebrews.

Because each man is born anew and he has before him the same possibility to establish himself as a child of the living God with his own unaided soul.

--Pythagorean