Agnostiscism and atheism

Boagie, you seem to come across as some kind of expert on reasonableness and common sense but I am confused. All I did was to point out the ongoing changes afoot in the world and hint that some of these changes are problematic and try to suggest an analysis of where some of the problems may lie. I don't understand your reply, quite frankly. You have a brooding resentment of Christianity that seems to reject any rational consideration concerning it. I mean no offense but that's the feeling that I get.

Rational consideration of it,meaning Christianity,seems to be offensive.It seems to me we are at opposite ends of a pole.I have also long been aware of your sympathies with Christianity and if you were honest you would admit to being a bit of the crusader.If it is political incorrect to ask for people to back up their statements-----I think we have entered the land of the silly.Actually in reguards that post of yours I responded to,I thought you were flexing your muscles there,I shall go back and read it again.Well maybe just bit.This topic it strikes me,is something you are pretty emotionally invested in,try to be aware of that.

"Boagie, your definition of common sense seems to refer only to the things that you believe in or assert and whatever I say you simply label as not being part of common sense because you personally don't see it that way and that seems unfair to me. That's my impression of it anyway.

We are all our own authority,at least I hope you are your own authority.This I do not see as a negative.I asked of The Hermit that he back up his statements or show what the rational for such statements might look like,he either cannot or wishes to withhold that information.It is not an ureasonable request,faith does not cut it here.

No Boagie, I am not "a bit of a crusader" at all, and I think that deep down inside you really know that that is the truth. It is merely my natural tendency to come to the defense of Western Civilization, to try to preserve what is worth while without throwing it all away or seeing it collapse before my eyes. I am not a Christian, as I keep telling you. Why can't you accept that fact? "

Actually I am well aware you are not a Christian,but I am aware also that you are a champion for its cause, it is perhaps of some necessity on your part I do not know.Western Civilization is a glorious subject,but there always comes time to build a new.With the natural world in decline this is extreme optimism.

"I have spent my life reading and falling in love with the history of Western Civilization. And that's also by the way, why I love Nietzsche (who you should really get around to actually reading, if you find the time :eek:). Nietzsche understood Christianity before he critisized it, he started out his education by training to become a priest! and his father was a pastor! I also love the ancient Greeks and I happen to consider myself as an adherent of ancient Greek religion as well as philosophy. I love the history and spirit of the west, that's where I get my intellectual nourishment, that's where I received my education (such that it is). My knowledge tends to be derived directly from the deepest crises and greatest changes that are currently taking place in our culture; and those changes happen to involve (the death of) Christianity. And so I am forced to deal with it!"

You have chosen this hill on which to do die,there are many many hills on which it would be honourable to die upon.Never the less,you have chosen,and Christianty is part of a package deal.As to my Knowledge of Nietzsche,and my statement about what he said,in what way is it in error? He clearly states that Christianity is a form of nihilism.Your own experience of reading the bibles devaluation of the world in favor of a world of the imagination should leave no doubt.

"Your problem Boagie is that you are, as you said, too offended by Christianity to hold a rational conversation regarding it. But you should know that you cannot claim to fully understand the West or history without understanding the huge role that Christianity and even the obvious decay of Christianity is now playing in our culture, and that is so important to understanding the modern world. You are a partisan of the anti-Christian ideology, but if you write about this in the forums I should be allowed to make my own comments as well. You must also back up your statements just as anyone else and not hide behind the all-inclusive mantra that you are in 'common sense land' and everyone who differs with you is an outlander."

My problem is perhaps trying to rationally discuss the irrational in the presence of its supporters.I like you in all probablity are productions of western civilization.So,as such if we are the cause of change,it is within one tradition.

"Your question to The Hermit seems to me to be reasonable enough but you should also heed my statements above regarding his list of human intuitions that you deem to be unreasonable or unscientific. The things in human nature that The Hermit writes about are realities of human intuition, as I see it. Also, as I said, human eroticism is a central part of human nature, and eroticism cannot be explained or even dealt with at all by your seemingly narrow notions of common sense and science, can it Boagie?? But what would we be without such things? We are not rational creatures, we are human beings with qualities that cannot be captured or fully explained by the sciences. Boagie you must at least admit that this is true, no?"

We disgust the use of poetry in philosophy at an earlier date,these finer sensiabilties are not appropriate to philosphy.Free speculation is fine, intution is a wonderfully creative source,but unless you are willing to attempt to communicate how you arrived at those conclusions,why bother making a statement,an authoritative statement,and expect it to be accepted,personally I have no use for faith.

"Boagie, I don't mean you any real offense, I think you know. I even take some enjoyment, as well as much instruction, from our disagreement over Christianity. I just think that you should appreciate the great catherdrals of the west along with the super colliders and space observatories. I think they all must be appreciated! "

The history of western culture is indeed rich,in fact Joseph Campbell once said dispite common knowledge, it is the oldest culture in the world.

"I'm sorry that talk of Christianity bothers you so much but I can't change the history of the world or the challenges of the present times."

Christianity does bother me,but only when believers insist on laying alot of irrational beliefs on me.For my part, should I apologize for my rational statements,which if ask would be most please to substantiate,or give it my best effort to substantiate,instead of accusing a fellow associate of bad intent.

Sorry,The Hermit posted just before myself.In all probablities if I have read it it would have change the emotional tone of this post one way or another.All the best gentleman!

Originally Posted by Boagie

As to my Knowledge of Nietzsche,and my statement about what he said,in what way is it in error? He clearly states that Christianity is a form of nihilism.Your own experience of reading the bibles devaluation of the world in favor of a world of the imagination should leave no doubt.

I like you in all probablity are productions of western civilization.So,as such if we are the cause of change,it is within one tradition.

We disgust the use of poetry in philosophy at an earlier date,these finer sensiabilties are not appropriate to philosphy.Free speculation is fine, intution is a wonderfully creative source,but unless you are willing to attempt to communicate how you arrived at those conclusions,why bother making a statement,an authoritative statement,and expect it to be accepted,personally I have no use for faith.

For my part, should I apologize for my rational statements,which if ask would be most please to substantiate,or give it my best effort to substantiate,instead of accusing a fellow associate of bad intent.

I admire the love that you show for religion so much that I was going to say "who am I to change your mind!" Why meddle with beauty in your heart. Follow your bliss and be content.

I agree with your characterization of what Nietzsche said. He said it was tantamount to nihilism. Nietzsche like you, believed in this world, but very much un-like you he did not believe in the intellectual credibility of science and he most certainly was not an exponent of rationalism. Of that you can be sure. Nietzsche took his bearings from the ancient Greeks who believed in irrational forces."

Pythagorean,

Nietzsche like me believed in the world you say,that is a plus.As to my belief in rationalism,I do not believe any knowledge is to be had without experience.As to the credibility of science,we might talk about that,certainly science has made it easier to manipulated the physical world.I to believe in irrational forces but it is best to limit their interplay while trying to have a rational debate.


"Nietzsche also believed in human slavery and the subjection of the weak to the powerful. The reason Nietzsche believed in violence and slavery and war is because he knew full well the implications of his anti-Christian proposals. And this was the point I was trying to raise with you earlier. We need to be mindful of what we are doing when we replace the moral standards with purely natural standards. Because as Nietzsche knew and taught,the natural standards are very, very harsh."


I think your interpretation of Nietzsche may be one of a common mistake,certainly I am no authority, but is this not the interpretation that is said to be the common error of public evaluation? You sound like you fear a return to the jungle,that indeed would be horrific.Consider your term,natural standards,Christianity arose from natural standards,that identification with ones fellow man is natural,Christianity did not create it.Why do you believe,seeing that you are not a Christian,that Christianity cannot be replaced?



"The harshness of Nietzsche's conception of nature is best revealed in the concept of Tragedy. The notion of Tragedy in the Greek naturalistic conception is derived from the blindness that fate or natural necessity causes to humanity when humans live completely within the naturalistic world. Tragedy marks the weakness and ultimate death of human identity when it is completely exposed to nature. Tragedy is a form of human sacrifice, a sacrifice that becomes compulsory in the necessary hopes that the survival of the identity (or the heart) of the society will go on existing within nature when nature is devoid of the 'magic' of Christian salvation. It was that great rationalist Karl Marx who repudiated the entire concept of Tragedy. "Necessity," he said, "is blind only to the extent it is not understood." But Tragedy arises out of precisely the opposite assertion: necessity is blind and man's encounter with it shall rob him of his eyes, whether it be in Thebes or in Gaza. Science or reason is powerless in the face of raw nature. Nature is not rational, and man who is born of nature, if given back his natural place should not be expected to act rationally but rather he will act brutally because nature commands his survival. The Tragic state of affairs is the true condition of man in nature. Nietzsche, of course, was well aware of Tragedy and he sought to revive it by his work as revealed in his books."

The human condition is tragedy.To live subordinated to nature is to experience indifference to your survival.Nature is your object and what you must adapt to,any pretense of other worlds with different game rules is a diserves to humanity.Most of the population does not even know they are dependent on nature,they are that far out of touch with reality and certainly Christianity encourages this.If god is looking after every thing, what is to worry about---ignorance is bless!


"You have here made a very profound observation. We are of the same general tradition but the tradition obviously contains some internal contradictions. Having said that I actually believe that the naturalistic type of standards that you espouse will win out in the end, they are winning right now in our culture and they will continue to be victorious. I would only like to discuss these profound ongoing changes. I think even slavery will come back because I think that as Aristotle has stated and Nietzsche has implied, human slavery is indeed natural among heathen cultures."

Yes,we might discuss the changes taking place,one thing you might consider is man himself is part of nature,and Christianity is an expression of that nature.I am sure over time,we can solve the problems of the world,but as is my belief,Christianity is a corrupt expression,and anti-earth.


"You are misunderstanding me. I am not advocating the use of poetry in philosophy. I am telling you that the revaluation of values and the return to naturalistic standards will necessitate many forms of irrationalism (inlcuding especially violent competition for power). I actually believe that science will probably die after the death of Christianity, science is probably dependent upon Christian moral standards. I think that without Christianity science would never have arisen in the first place. If you look at the natural cultures of the earth which pre-dated Christianity they never succeeded in attaining the advancement of progressive science. But that is open to debate I know."


Your right science being due to the existence of Christianity is a stretch.Certainly Christianity has done its best to stifle free thought for a very long time.Easier the argument, science is the child of philosophy.


"I might add that there are many scientists practising today who believe in the Christian God. And, as is a well known fact, Albert Einstein himself was a believer in God. I myself do not advocate the Christian God, I think of myself as an advocate of knowledge only."

An ability to accomplish in scholarly endevours seems no garentee of rationality.Albert Einstein did not believe in a personal god,and this he states clearly and emphatically,as he was upset at being use by the religious.Einstein was spiritual,but spirituality that is not Christian,falls upon Christian deaf ears.


"Boagie I did not mean to accuse you of 'bad intent' at all. There's nothing wrong with having a disagreement with your fellow associate, in fact such disagreements should be expected in the real world. I learned from Nietzsche too that from disagreement can grow some benefits. I hope that you are not too sore at me Boagie, I hope we can disagree and grow together too."

Yes,I am sorry if I got a little difficult to deal with.I may disagree with you a great deal, but over all I think you are a man of good intent.I am looking forward to dialogueing further with you.



"Be wary of both honor and disgrace"[INDENT]"Endless affliction is bound to the body"[/INDENT][INDENT]What does it mean,[/INDENT][INDENT]"Be wary of both honor and disgrace"?[/INDENT][INDENT]Honor is founded on disgrace[/INDENT][INDENT]and disgrace is rooted in honor[/INDENT][INDENT]Both should be avoided[/INDENT][INDENT]Both bind a man to this world[/INDENT][INDENT]That?s why it says,[/INDENT][INDENT]"Be wary of both honor and disgrace"[/INDENT][INDENT]What does it mean,[/INDENT][INDENT]"Endless affliction is bound to the body"?[/INDENT][INDENT]Man?s true self is eternal,[/INDENT][INDENT]yet he thinks, "I am this body, I will soon die"[/INDENT][INDENT]This false sense of self[/INDENT][INDENT]is the cause of all his sorrow[/INDENT][INDENT]When a person does not identify himself with the body[/INDENT][INDENT]tell me, what troubles could touch him?[/INDENT][INDENT]One who sees himself as everything[/INDENT][INDENT]is fit to be guardian of the world[/INDENT][INDENT]One who loves himself as everyone[/INDENT][INDENT]is fit to be teacher of the world[/INDENT]-- Lao Tzu - Tao Te Ching - Verse 13