Adam and Eve

I answered your question. You didn't like the answer and tried to twist my words. Did I say other people do not have wisdom? No.

What I said is that reason is not the only tool we have and when you couldn't possible think of another one I mentioned wisdom. When I did you were angry and accused me of saying I was the only one with wisdom.

Lets keep it real, k?

Kathrine.

Wisdom is in the use of knowledge I believe,do you have a different defination?

Step back and breathe, please.

Aristoddler,

What about this post disturbs you? Views are being challenged,a defination of wisdom is being established.No one is calling anyone names,what is the problem Aristoddler?:confused:

Again Kathrine,

Do you have a different defination of wisdom? Is it then different than reason? Just tell me what your creature looks like.To me, wisdom is reasoned judgement which is put into action.






"Are you going to be able to use the system,or is the system going to eat you up?"JC

Ok, way off topic... we're into wisdom. Should we open a new thread on wisdom? Let's keep it to the Adam and Eve.

Thanks!

I agree with you, but just looking at the discussion makes it seem like the discussion is too fluctual to really have a specific topic and happen. It's actually a real discussion! Reminds me of My Dinner with Andre. Maybe that should be this new thread's name? Don't know where something could possibly fit...:confused: But title it: Dinner! Or something of the sort.

Justin,

This is a natural development of dialogue,do you wish to give up any pretense of philosophical debate.Surely you are not telling me that parts do not constitute a whole.If Katherine does not want further dialogue let her state it so,or simply not respond.If people are to be silenced because others do not like how its going,then the pretense is really over isn't it! Katherine states wisdom is one of the tools by which she comes to her beliefs,as in the belief in Adam and Eve,and that this is something other than reason.I have simply asked her to explain in greater detail what this wisdom is.If you really must have input here Justin join the debate,perhaps you can tell me of this wisdom that is other than reason.

I think it's interesting that Lilith has been ignored.

Lilith, the woman who was created at the same time as Adam (or before, I heard this from a teacher offhand and don't remember so well what he said:p ), didn't want to play the inferior role, so flew off and became a demon and such, and Eve was then made out of Adam's rib/side/body part. She's also responsible for things that happen to men, I heard. One's wet dreams, one thing is something that I didn't quite remember. More mythology! XDx3

Llilith was more of a Pagan idea, wasn't she?

Why, is there a requirement that we have to be talking in Christian terms? :rolleyes:

Actually, I have no clue as to how the book of Lilith came into being, but there was some old Hebrew text from what I heard from the teacher I mentioned, and it was called the book of Lilith. And, Pagan or not, it was about the creation era, from what I understand.

What are you doing Boagie, making friends and influencing people again? Don't get yourself tossed off here. It won't be some much fun anymore.

People should take personal arguments (especially when they're irrelevant to the specific topic) to the Private message system! Isn't that some idea? OR, make a new topic that would encompass any kind of discussion that may stem from a certain type of topic?

I do not believe the Adam and Eve story as taught by the churchs. I believe it's a way of telling the story of the beginning of enlightened human beings at a time when other humans were plentiful but were not of the "kind" that genesis is addressing. I also believe it contains many insights into the nature of the duality of man and god. I also believe it contains many other "layers" of uncommon knowlege.

I also believe that the bible has been intentionally and unintentionally altered by mankind distorting many of it's truest intents. On the plus side, since most of it is told in parables that most did not and still do not understand, much of the deeper hidden meanings are still in tact.

I agree totally with you twilighteyes. Even though I have not read the bible, I have studied about it extensively. I believe it to be a great issue to talk about, as long as it is done logically and not with malice or anger. The ultimate issue of our times is the fact that so many people are raised in a box of religion, with a very tight lid. I contemplate full time, on how they can have the courage and strength to lift the lid and take a peek out. I hope we and others can chat about this issue. Again, I think it is of the ultimate importance at this time in history.

Hi, i too look forward to many insightful conversations on this forum. I know that i am in a process of "awakening" that until recently (now 46) had been just a glimpse of some of the things i am now "seeing".

You said I too was raised in such a fanatical but blind way. I left at 13 and have been searching long, hard and deeply for truth that i have always sensed i was on the brink of uncovering. I can relate strongly to our words about "the courage and strength to lift the lid and take a peek out". I would have to say the most difficult thing about my journey has been finding the strength and the courage to overcome the fear to think of things and in ways that any church i know of would surely condemn me to their hell for. I believe most including myself who were raised in this way have a deep seated fear of being condemned for thinking certain things. I believe it has been my courage to face the unthinkable that has lead me to greater truths than i had achieved in my younger years.

Hehe, don't get me wrong. I do not claim to have a majority of the answers but for the first time in my life "my eyes are truly open" and the things i am seeing are truly stupifying.

let me ask you this

Would it be true if the Living God had revealed His Word which would reveal His will for mankind in mankind's relationship with Him and His creation of which mankind is. What excuse would there be for not believing Him. A church, a religion, wretched beings in the church or a religion, a liar, a very skilled liar, dissatisfaction in ones own condition or the condition of the world?

Would it be true that he who blames, has no judgement within himself? Which is a lesson in the Adam and Eve event. They did not say to the Lord you told us what we should do and we did not do it according to your Word. In stead, they blamed. And still lost the Life of God that God gave them of Himself.

That which they where told by God was wisdom and good judgement, His Word. Which is some of that which was lost in the garden. For all wisdom and judgement (what to say no to) is given by God. For now, the world is ruled by the wrath in man rather then the mercy of God. Which was given to restore mankind to the Life God has given of Himself, despite the wrath in man.

DP, you say Living God as if there were a another one, possibly a dead one. There is only One... Correct?

Believing in God doesn't mean believing in all the things that man has written. Once again, Adam and Eve, the story was written nearly 4000 years after it would have taken place. Now, while the story may or may not be exact, there is meaning behind it and I agree with that portion of it. Matter of fact, the story could have been more of a metaphor.

The question is, was the author truly given this word of God? Science has proven that the earth has been around and populated with life long before that of Adam and Eve. So why would we believe anything other than the meaning behind it? We don't need Adam and Eve to understand judgment, just take a look around us and it's plain to see.

You say all wrath and judgment have been given by God. Everything is given by God... isn't it? Isn't everything around us God?.. Nature, Love and Creation?

If you believe in all the stories of the Bible, there's nothing wrong with that. It's man's nature to call upon a higher force usually when man finds he cannot do something himself, or he hits rock bottom. That's when one goes seeking the Church for forgiveness and mercy. This is when one starts to pray for both the above among other things. Just the belief alone can change your life... which doesn't mean our beliefs are truth.

The wrath of man... you are correct on that one. Man has been led blindly by the egos of other men. If the Religion shoe fits, they wear it. These Religions are leading people politically because they've removed God from creation and turned him into some deity in the sky. They've brainwashed men into judging other religions which causes war and destruction. The wrath of man and the destruction of our great world is due to the fact that we've divided ourselves and built edifices. We've taken God out of man so that man has to look up rather than inside. Man has something to blame like Satan or evil spirits and can receive forgiveness for his dirty deeds by asking God... rather than looking deep inside himself and discovering who and what God really is.

God revealed himself to Walter Russell, why wouldn't someone who believes in God be reading what God revealed to Russell?

Adam and Eve or not, God is Creation. God is Omnipresent. God is Omnipotent. God just is! So to believe in any doctrine or religion that takes God and creation out of man, would be silly in my opinion.

Needless to say, the wrath of man is brought on by all these things we were conditioned to believe in. The wrath of man can be found in Religious doctrines and seen as an example in the world around us everyday.

I personally believe in Jesus and what he taught us. I don't find any need for the old testament at all, nor is there a need for all the stuff that Paul wrote after the resurrection of Christ.

It's difficult to understand because we weren't there when this all took place. They weren't as advanced in their thinking as we are today and they didn't have the ability to communicate like we do today. All I can say is that I don't believe for one moment that God took himself out of creation, he is creation... whether it be Adam and Eve or anything else.

Mr Justin
Thanks for the reply

"DP, you say Living God as if there were a another one, possibly a dead one. There is only One... Correct?"

As far as the One and only True God the Living God yes, but mankind loves after many things and worships, trusts, and hopes in those thing which are created, and not the Creator. The world, world peace, himself, his abilities and talents, a new car, his new found capabilities in communication of information and mobility, what ever. Mankind has been doing this through out recorded history.
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"Believing in God doesn't mean believing in all the things that man has written. Once again, Adam and Eve, the story was written nearly 4000 years after it would have taken place. Now, while the story may or may not be exact, there is meaning behind it and I agree with that portion of it. Matter of fact, the story could have been more of a metaphor."

In ref. To the books called the Bible:
God reveals His Word to whom He chooses to. Those who have been chosen to document that which God has said to them, and what God did after He said it. The first five books are written by the hand of Moses, which I suspect you already know, and Moses could talk to God just like you can talk to a trusted friend at any time. And Paul wrote to those that already had a relationship with God through Jesus and in the Holy Spirit and if one does not have that relationship, I could see how his writings can be difficult to understand. God has the power to retain and maintain anything through and in man. Just look at the history of Israel itself.
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"You say all wrath and judgment have been given by God. Everything is given by God... isn't it? Isn't everything around us God?.. Nature, Love and Creation?"

It seems that the use of the word judgement maybe misunderstood. The judgement I was alluding to is ones own ability to say no to, or refuse to obey, anything that is not the Word of God.
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"Adam and Eve or not, God is Creation. God is Omnipresent. God is Omnipotent. God just is! So to believe in any doctrine or religion that takes God and creation out of man, would be silly in my opinion."


God is not creation, How can that which was made be the true God, when it is God that made it?
For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever.
From His Will, through His Word, and to His Glory.
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"If you believe in all the stories of the Bible, there's nothing wrong with that. It's man's nature to call upon a higher force usually when man finds he cannot do something himself, or he hits rock bottom. That's when one goes seeking the Church for forgiveness and mercy. This is when one starts to pray for both the above among other things. Just the belief alone can change your life... which doesn't mean our beliefs are truth."

Yes that is why the week and the meek are blessed because they already know that they are not there own gods, and seek the mercy of the Living God. But the strong believing in that which was given them by the Creator makes them gods, and see no need for the Creator. He (the strong ) need no relationship with the Living God, he is his own provider he runs for his life and values not running to God's Life, that God gives through His Word and in His Mercy. Why should the strong man bow to his maker? Only when the strong come to the realization that they are truly not in control, and have been running for a life already lost in the grave.

Note: it might be wise to reconsider disregarding the Old Testament. For Jesus is the fulfilment thereof. In other words God said, God did.

In these passages below, I feel is the clue two the stories of individuals in the Bible. Land of Nod, anyone kills Cain, Cain lay with his wife. Hmmm let me think, Adam and Eve had to sons, Cain and Abel. Where the heck did the other's come from.
It is my belief, that the story of Adam and Eve is, the story of the start of the Jewish people and nothing more. The Old Testament is the story of the Jewish people and not humanity. Let me change "its my belief", to I am certain.


Genesis 4
13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear.
14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him.
16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.

PoPpAScience
I don't care much for posting scripture but in this case. Since you are making reference to Genesis, if you were to keep reading.


Gen:4:
25: And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26: And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
Gen:5:
1: This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2: Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3: And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
4: And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5: And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
6: And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
7: And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
8: And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
9: And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
10: And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
11: And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
12: And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:


And so on and so forth to Noah.
From Seth to his great grandson Mahaleel alone was 265 yr's, and notice all begat sons and daughters. So there is nowhere that it says Cain could not have had any of these daughters, since it was natural then to live over 700 years. There is nowhere that says when, he had a wife, it just says he did.

Also in ref. To Jewish ancestry; that started with Abraham 10 generations after Noah of which all are also from (Noah and family). Also Noah is 10 generations after Adam.

I'm sorry but I don't understand your certainty, in using Genesis to show it?