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Tue 4 Nov, 2003 02:45 pm
Piggybacked off another thread.
Misconeptions about Islam, attributions, and other errata.
Common misconceptions and misattributions:
Women are oppressed.
-false. No more or less so than other faiths that originated in the near east. In the Sharia, women are granted the right to initiate divorces, own property, btring suit, and bear witness.
Conversion by the sword:
-false. Christianity has always been big on this method of conversion (think Chilperic, Dagobert II, etc...). Islam has proscriptions against forcible conversion. It also has proscriptions against apostasy, as do the other "big two."
All non-Muslims must die:
-False. This is a common misreading of Mohammed's war against the pagan inhabitants of Mecca. In this case "unbelievers," or "pagans" (the two most common translations) mean just what they say. Again, well in line with the judeo-christian ethic of war and conquest.
The 72 black eyed virgins, etc...
-A poetic description of the heaven of one who dies for his faith. Completely in accordance with contemporary Near Eastern theological thought. Often descritions of heaven and hell were quite concrete. Abstract ideas of the afterlife really don't become common until the 17th century.
No religion is intrinsecally evil.
But often, religious zealots are evil.
Today's Muslim religious zealots are very evil.
This wasn't the case a few centuries ago.
During the Crusades, the Christians were less civilized and evil, while the Muslims were comparatively very civilized.
But still, today's Muslim religious zealots are very evil.
Christianity has often resorted to the sword.
It still does.
Certainly not - if I read the bible the way everyone seems to want to read the Quran right now, I'd probably comdemn Judaism and Christianity both, as well. Holy scriptures in general are rather dated, and you can't generalize a religion based only on them.
febeazer
Quote:This wasn't the case a few centuries ago.
During the Crusades, the Christians were less civilized and evil, while the Muslims were comparatively very civilized.
But still, today's Muslim religious zealots are very evil.
I for one couldn't care less about what happened during the crusades 1000 years ago I do however care about the here and now. Regarding your intelligence that the Christians were less civilized and evil during the Crusades I say so what. Today the Muslims are centuries behind. And they are the less civilized, evil and brutal. For that I can only point to their religion a religion that fosters these zealots.
Quote:Today the Muslims are centuries behind. And they are the less civilized, evil and brutal. For that I can only point to their religion a religion that fosters these zealots.
AU, have you ever been through the Rural South? Similar conditions, similar attitudes, different god.
And lumping all Muslims into a groups absed on the acts of a few is sloppy thinking. The Israeli army kills innocent Palestinians every day. The Israeli army is made up of Jews. Ergo, all Jews are evil killers of innocents? See how silly that sounds? Now consider your statements.
hobitbob
I haven't heard of any bus, car or suicide bombings in the rural south. There have been isolated cases of terrorism in the past but certainly not anything to compare with what goes on in the lands of Islam.
As for Israel killing innocent civilians. They do not target civilians as the Palestinians do. Their actions have always be retaliatory and every effort is made to avoid hitting civilians. I should also note the Palestinians hide among the civilians. I think that's called human shields.
I would also dispute your use of the word few when discussing Muslim terrorists. There is no few but many and they are aided and abetted by a good many more of their CO religionists. I know somewhere in that extensive education you must have learned the difference between few and many.
Hobit, this is a serious question with no disrespect meant.
What does life mean to muslims? Is is considered a gift or a stepping stone to greater things to come?
Martyrhood is not unknown amoungst Christians, I believe we popularized the action, but is there a fundamental difference is the way Islam views life on earth compared to Judeo-Christian thinking? Or is the idea of life being sacred more a western ideal.
This is partly is refrence to suicide bombing but not entirely. I'll clarify later if my post isn't clear enough.
Thanks,
Ceili
Islam holds life to be sacred. Suicide is an abomination. It is only the fundy loonies who hold it to be otherwise. And just to clarify, Islam is a Western tradition.
This thread is getting nowhere, IMO.
Honestly, I think now it started nowhere.
Generalizations about religions and their followers are, to say the least, imprecise.
Islamic zealots are not Islamism. It's wrong to put everything in the same basket. It's a prejudice. There are things in Islam that promote extremism. And Muslim extremists have proven evil for both their peoples and their foes.
Christianism is practiced in parts of the world, in average, more democratic and tollerant than the areas in which the Muslim religion is practiced. So there's less Christian extremism. But not because the religion is intrinsecally superior.
If Hobitbob's proposition was to defend modern Islam, I think he misfired.
If the objective was to prove that there are prejudices against Moslims, he was on target.
All religion, at it's heart, is well-meaning. It's the fanatics who ruin it for everyone. 'Nuff said.
I don't think it is possible to defend Islam in today's America. I was reluctant to begin this thread because of the very postings that have appeared. It is fashionable to condemn Islam and anything that is "other" in the US today. How sad!
Cool yer boots there hobitbob....I for one have no problem with Islam, or any other religion. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but it's only those devestating acts of destruction in the name of god perpetrated on the world by ALL religions that pisses me off, and let's face facts...whatever religion you might be, we are all guilty by association, in one way or another. Anyone wanna challenge me there?
hobit, during the industrial revolution, life was cheap if you were poor especially, children were endentured, education was non existant. The richer the west became the more life was held as sacred for everyone. Not necessarily because or in spite of a religious belief system.
Life is still cheap to many in North America, witness death by street crimes, bullets ect.
My question wasn't point out any superiority of one belief or people or area over another. I was curious if there is a paradim shift perhaps even with in Islam itself, just as Christians have differing views on suicide, medicine and birth control to name a few.
I live about as far west as you can go, I have trouble seeing the west in anything so far east, at least from my perspective. If my question is going to cause further disgust, just disregard. I have no intention of defending my questions over and over again.
Ceili
Quote:I was curious if there is a paradim shift perhaps even with in Islam itself, just as Christians have differing views on suicide, medicine and birth control to name a few.
Not as such, no. Instead the political use of Islamic rhetoric is often used to encourage people to commit violent acts. Most Muslims would tell you that suicide bombers are in Hell.
Jessica Stern is a good source for the role of religion in terror.
Hobitbob: Please name three most widely respected Islamic religious leaders who have publicly preached to his people that the sucide bombers are in hell or who have appeared on a broadcast saying same.
Salman al-Adwah comes immediately to mind. The Council on American Islamic Associations has repeatedly condemned suicide bombings and terrorism. They aren't too hard to find. Read the editorial pages of Jordan Times, Egypt Times, Arab News, al-Jazeera, etc... I have seen condemnations of suicide bombers by Islamic clerics on the News Hour, on 60 Minutes, on Frontline, etc.... I'm sort of surprised that you have missed these.
No, not the editorial pages, religious leaders, please. I will look up Salman al-Adwah. I want the name of the immans who are sitting in front of the congregations and condemning the suicide attackers. No one else has any real weight in the discussion. You know that.
I happen to think the Catholic church is one of the most evil organisations on earth. Particularly in relation to it's persistent protection of paedophiles.
In many ways Islam today is a mirror image of Catholicism about 500 years ago. What made Catholicism mellow? The Secular movement in government. The evil that Islam now enjoys will never be cured until they are able to extricate religion from government.
au1929 wrote:hobitbob
I haven't heard of any bus, car or suicide bombings in the rural south. There have been isolated cases of terrorism in the past but certainly not anything to compare with what goes on in the lands of Islam.
As for Israel killing innocent civilians. They do not target civilians as the Palestinians do. Their actions have always be retaliatory and every effort is made to avoid hitting civilians. I should also note the Palestinians hide among the civilians. I think that's called human shields.
I would also dispute your use of the word few when discussing Muslim terrorists. There is no few but many and they are aided and abetted by a good many more of their CO religionists. I know somewhere in that extensive education you must have learned the difference between few and many.
Sorry, but I must disagree with that one. I have SEEN an Israeli rocket land in a crowd of civilians, including firefighters attempting to put out the fire that another one of their bombs caused.
And as for their punishment of the families of suicide bombers. Dragging them out of their homes and blowing it up. How is that justice?
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