The "Evils of Islam?"

Wilso
You've seen? Have you also seen the cause of that rocket to be fired? Perhahaps you have also seen buses, eating establishments and the bodies of those blown apart by terrorist actions?

0 Replies

I've also seen the scenes of the palestinian kids blown apart by the rockets from the Israeli's helicopter gun ships. Neither side has got the moral high ground.

0 Replies

Wilso
There is no moral high ground in war. I've stopped looking for what can not reasonably exist. Remember in war the object is to kill the enemy there can be no morality in killing.

0 Replies

Re: The "Evils of Islam?"

hobitbob wrote:

Conversion by the sword:
-false. Christianity has always been big on this method of conversion (think Chilperic, Dagobert II, etc...).

Y'know, it's not every day that I'm offered the chance to think "Chilperic" or "Dagobert II," and I suppose I should make the most of the opportunity. But I must confess that I'm sitting here thinking "Chilperic" and nothing seems to come to mind. If it's all right with you, bob, I'll go back to thinking "Clovis" and "Sigebert III" for a while.

hobitbob wrote:

And just to clarify, Islam is a Western tradition.

No it's not, unless your definition of "western" is so broad as to encompass the Semitic, post-Hellenistic middle east.

0 Replies

Quote:

No it's not, unless your definition of "western" is so broad as to encompass the Semitic, post-Hellenistic middle east

That would be the definition of Western for many specialists. By the same token, many would include everything from the eastern borders of Italy in the condept of "orient." My personal reason for considering Islam a western tradition is that it is one of the offshoots of Judaism, and therfore closely tied into the "western" heritage (whatever that is, and if Italgato were still around I'm sure he would write a marvelously long post full of thinly veiled sarcasm questioning my parentage, alma mater, etc... and never once approaching the topic, but I'm sure Justice Posner would be quoted somehow.). In addition, the major inroads made by Islam into both southern and eastern Europe encourage the religion to be thought of as "western." Lastly, the fact that Islam has a carfully crafted theory of eschatology places it amongst the western religions. "Eastern" religions like Bhuddism and Hinduis tend not to go in for such things.
Re Clodoveg and Sidgeberd, I encourage folks to think about the Early Medieval kings as much as possible. I have done seminar papers on the innovations of Chilperic and Dagbert I, II, and II, therefore am more familiar with them.
BTW, Joey I have not been rude to you in past, and see no reason for you to come off like an adolsecent spoiling for a fight. Perhaps you and Itty-kitty rubbed off too much on each other?

0 Replies

Regarding Imams...
I don't know where this fits but, from what I've read of the Aga Khan and his followers - the Ismailis, he definately teaches tolerance, peace and understanding.
I'm very surprised that I have heard so little from him in the last few years. Perhaps it is a western bias which is filtering out positive messages from the people of Islam, I don't know.

0 Replies

au1929 wrote:

In many ways Islam today is a mirror image of Catholicism about 500 years ago. What made Catholicism mellow? The Secular movement in government. The evil that Islam now enjoys will never be cured until they are able to extricate religion from government.

Now we are going somewhere.

And we are getting into an intrinsic problem of Islam: the fusion of political and religious life. The worlds need more "Young Turks".

It is interesting to notice that formerly secular nationalistic movements, such as Baath, became less secular with time. Perhaps it was the West's reaction to nationalistic Islamic nations which threw the Baathist leaders -non democratic, but certainly not religious zealots- into the arms of the fundamentalists.

0 Replies

I heard a very interesting series of programs on the CBC a few months ago on Islam. One of the muslim scholars interviewed said that Islam had never undergone a 'refromation' as the Catholic Church had done/or had done to them. It was this reformation of the Christian identity that changed the face of religion and politics.
The scholar went on to say, Islam is now at the equivalent place in history as Catholism was during the refromation. Islam started 500 years (there abouts) after Christianity began. It was during the middle ages - where many people consider Islam now that the great schism occured.
Facinating concept. Regardless of your feelings toward Islam, I do believe that a schism is now begining to occur in this faith. Between those that believe in terror as a means to an end and those that pray for peace.
Ceili

0 Replies

au1929 wrote:

I for one couldn't care less about what happened during the crusades 1000 years ago I do however care about the here and now. Regarding your intelligence that the Christians were less civilized and evil during the Crusades I say so what. Today the Muslims are centuries behind. And they are the less civilized, evil and brutal. For that I can only point to their religion a religion that fosters these zealots.

I agree with that! SO WHAT about the Crusades.

The ills of an Islamic world IS in the throes of a deep, historic crisis!!! The dream of modernity in the Arab heartland of Islam has been thwarted. The grace of life in cities that once knew some civility has been overwhelmed by a great demographic explosion. With 41% of it's population under the age of 14, the Arab region has the highest birthrate on the planet. At the same time, it is in the grip of mass poverty: Consider that 22 Arab countries, taken together, have a smaller GNP than that of Spain alone.

Even the oil lands, once the 'El Dorado' of the region, have not been spared. Saudi Arabia and the smaller oil states of the Persian Gulf have run down their foreign currency reserves, while their populations have doubled over the last 2 decades.

Some people try to pull the wool over everyone's eyes and say that it's not Islam's fault - but the governments of many, if not most all the Muslem countries are dictated by Islamic fundamentalists, zealots or religious fanatics. The Saudis have their own, their version of the 19th century Islamic fundamentalism - Wahhabism!

Having been awakened to it's own decline, the Islamic world is searching desperately for someone to blame - AND we all know who they've found.

Of course, Islam is responsible. It's a sad shame that it is.

0 Replies

Wilso wrote:

Sorry, but I must disagree with that one. I have SEEN an Israeli rocket land in a crowd of civilians, including firefighters attempting to put out the fire that another one of their bombs caused.

And as for their punishment of the families of suicide bombers. Dragging them out of their homes and blowing it up. How is that justice?

But remember, the rockets are aimed at a HAMAS militant or militant leaders (who usually hide as deeply within a neighborhood as possible) and sadly, there are innocent casualties, too many actually - BUT, the same thing happens in every other war ever fought. It's a slow, painful, bloody, war of attrition that both sides are fighting - and they've been doing it this way for decades.

Actually, Wilso, I'm not fond at all of some of the Israeli methods, but, they do what they do, becasue they are being forced to do. They could be a little more patient though, and a lot more precise!

Arafat has never, NEVER, done what he COULD have done. He's never clamped down on the terrorists/suicide bombers, EVEN when he could have done it. Even Edward Said, the late great scholar and champion of peace and justice in Israel/Palestine, wrote in 2001, that Arafat has been such a lousy leader, with so many missed opportunities for the Palestinian peoples - EVEN EDWARD SAID thinks Arafat should have been removed from the process. I agree.

Suicide bomber's families? Hell, that's the one thing I agree with - Anyway, Saddam Hussein won't be sending $10,000-$25,000 to each of the suicide bomber's family any longer, will he? Good grief - if you harbor a terrorist, you're no better than a terrorist, YUP!!! - and that includes mom, dad, and sister too. They are not innocents, at all (I'm sure there are isolated, rather rare cases where Grandma had no clue that her 17 y/o grandson was going to blow up himself and a bus) - but hell, the Isaeli intellgence community usually does some investigation into the family, before any orders are given to blow up or bulldoze the house. Often, it's much later, weeks, months, or even years later, it's razed. Sometimes, you walk in and the palestinian family is dancing on chairs and partying after their daughter blew up an Isreali Day care Center!

0 Replies

Islam is/isn't a church-state institution?

fbaezer wrote:

And we are getting into an intrinsic problem of Islam: the fusion of political and religious life. The worlds need more "Young Turks".

Well Fbaezer, this is the idea that I mentioned last night, from which this thread originated. When I mentioned that Islam encompasses both 'Church and State' - I was told that my statement was "ignorant" - so maybe you and HobitBob can battle this one out. I'm going to try and stay out of any flame wars, if they erupt - so far so good! LOL. I would like to see it demonstrated how I was wrong? Islam is or isn't a church-state institution? (probably should be a new thread, eh?)

0 Replies

hobitbob wrote:

My personal reason for considering Islam a western tradition is that it is one of the offshoots of Judaism, and therfore closely tied into the "western" heritage (whatever that is, and if Italgato were still around I'm sure he would write a marvelously long post full of thinly veiled sarcasm questioning my parentage, alma mater, etc... and never once approaching the topic, but I'm sure Justice Posner would be quoted somehow.).

Yeah, I miss Italgato too.

But Judaism is only closely tied to the western tradition through Christianity. In and of itself, however, Judaism is no more western than Zoroastrianism.

hobitbob wrote:

BTW, Joey I have not been rude to you in past, and see no reason for you to come off like an adolsecent spoiling for a fight. Perhaps you and Itty-kitty rubbed off too much on each other?

Calm down there, hobibit (as the dear departed gato would say). I apologize if I came off as confrontational. No offense intended. I just couldn't resist responding to a posting that asked us all to muse on a couple of obscure Frankish kings.

0 Replies

I think I have to go with joe here regarding Judaism and Islam as Western religions. The earliest biblical records place Judaism as originating in Sumeria and Egypt. Both Islam and Christianity were offshoots of Judaism, which would make them all Middle-Eastern religions, technically, neither East nor West, somewhere inbetween. Wink

0 Replies

joefromchicago

Quote:

But Judaism is only closely tied to the western tradition through Christianity. In and of itself, however, Judaism is no more western than Zoroastrianism.

I can't buy that. Judaism is the basis for western tradition. Without Judaism there would be no Christianity. Since that is the foundation upon which Christianity rests.

0 Replies

Technically, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are all Mid-Eastern religions. The only "western" religions would be the religions of various Native American groups.

0 Replies

Is there an echo in here? Thanks rufio, for backing me up actually. It's true.

0 Replies

Sorry, I haven't been following this thread too closely.

0 Replies

Heh heh, no problem.

0 Replies

Where Judaism and Christianity originated is not relevant. They are what is commonly understood to be western religions.

0 Replies

Any time there is a common ground between warring peoples, there is a possiblity for diplomacy.

0 Replies

The "Evils of Islam?"

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know