4
   

Judges Object to Bad Sex Crime Laws

 
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 01:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
there is no exploitation, because there is nothing exploitative about taking nude pictures of kids, and once they are old enough to make up their own minds kids who are willing to have their nude pictures taken.


There is no exploitation?

Do you propose sort of a medical marijuana scenario where government sanctioned photographers ensure that the kids whose pictures are taken are not exploited?

You are a study in contradiction, Hawkeye. The pictures taken of children who are not old enough to give consent are to be passed around the marketplace so that pedophiles can exploit them.


Quote:
I do not believe in the theory of informed consent, because in real life consent is rarely cut and dried. This idea humans can not consent because they have not reached a magic age has no basis for being taken seriously. It is a made up rule that has very little correlation to reality.


You know that to be false and I really can't imagine why you would try to advance such a spurious notion. Of course kids can easily be taken advantage of. Hell, even adults are taken everyday of the week.

Informed consent means just that. The party is given the information necessary information that will allow that person to make a reasoned judgment.


Quote:

We have this made up rationalization for what we want to do, which is to forbid humans under the age of 17 from having sex.


Do you know this to be fact?

Quote:
So, we have pictures of naked kids where no harm was done, and we have guys looking at those pictures and having fantasies....again where no harm is done. What exactly is the problem that needs all of this Gestapo treatment?


You first acknowledge that some kids aren't old enough to give consent, then you suggest that it's okay to take pictures of young children who haven't given their consent assuming that later they will have no problem that their nude pictures are floating around in public, and that this will have no negative consequences for them.

Please, try to make some sense of your arguments before you put them forward.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 02:53 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
You first acknowledge that some kids aren't old enough to give consent, then you suggest that it's okay to take pictures of young children who haven't given their consent assuming that later they will have no problem that their nude pictures are floating around in public, and that this will have no negative consequences for them.
You have to know by my having already rejected the theory of informed consent that I will not find your arguments based upon the theory of informed consent convincing.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 03:16 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
You have to know by my having already rejected the theory of informed consent that I will not find your arguments based upon the theory of informed consent convincing.


You have to know that before you reject anything you have to apply a certain measure of both reality and thought.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 04:55 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
You have to know that before you reject anything you have to apply a certain measure of both reality and thought.
interesting that you would say that to me after I have said that the theory of informed consent is not consistent with reality.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 05:49 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
interesting that you would say that to me after I have said that the theory of informed consent is not consistent with reality.


Do tell. No, I mean it, do tell.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 06:32 pm
@hawkeye10,
What is this nonsense about a "theory of informed consent"?

What are you talking about?

In the first place, "informed consent" has to do with legal documents in which a patient gives consent for medical procedures or treatments

Quote:
Informed consent is a legal document in all 50 states. It is an agreement for a proposed medical treatment or non-treatment, or for a proposed invasive procedure. It requires physicians to disclose the benefits, risks, and alternatives to the proposed treatment, non-treatment, or procedure. It is the method by which fully informed, rational persons may be involved in choices about their health care.
http://www.answers.com/topic/informed-consent


Informed consent is not "theoretical", it refers to actual documents used in medical care, and it has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.

This discussion no longer makes any sense, Hawkeye. It is unrelated to the topic posted (which was the length of sentences given to those found to be in possession of child pornography), and it is not a cogent, or even fully coherent, discussion of anything tangentially related to the topic.

0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 06:34 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
You have to know that before you reject anything you have to apply a certain measure of both reality and thought.
interesting that you would say that to me after I have said that the theory of informed consent is not consistent with reality.


I would venture that your views and theories as they relate to children and sexuality are not consistent with reality, morality, ethics or acceptable public opinion.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 06:50 pm
@Intrepid,
And people wonder why I recommend this piece of **** self-terminate for the good of the species.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 06:53 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:

And people wonder why I recommend this piece of **** self-terminate for the good of the species.


Seems a bit harsh, but I can certainly understand your sentiment.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 07:04 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I think that 12-13 years old wanting to have sex, and people of all age wanting to have sex with them, is normal, and has been the norm through much of history.

Really? What the hell are you talking about? How could you possibly know that enough people of all ages want to have sex with twelve and thirteen year olds that it could possibly be thought of as 'normal'? Are you talking both genders ? As in as many adult women desiring sex with twelve year old boys (or girls) as adult men wanting sex with twelve year old girls (or boys)?
I'm sorry - I just don't buy that- and if it's true- I guess that means I'm not normal and neither are the huge majority of the people I know who happily desire sex with other adults and would not see the allure in sex with a twelve year old child if that child were the last person on earth.

Quote:
We mostly resist now because we believe in childhood, but the idea of childhood is a fairly modern construct. Allowing the looking at pictures is a good way to satisfy the urge so as to help to avoid actual sex taking place.

Give me a break. For people who like looking at pictures of children for sexual purposes, actually and obsessively looking at pictures of what they dream of having is nothing less than dangerous to any child in their vicinity.
Quote:
We should understand that kids will be sexual, but it should be between themselves.

What? But you just said that 'childhood' is something we've made up and it's 'normal' for people of all ages to want to have sex with children.

And you know - before you say it - just because you have these crazy-ass ideas about sex doesn't mean that you like or understand sex more than anyone else. All it means is that you've convinced yourself of whatever you need to convince yourself of to prove that you're 'normal'.
But I don't know any 'normal' adults who desire sex with a twelve year old.
Why would they? What can a twelve year old offer an adult sexually that another adult can't or doesn't offer?

JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 07:54 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
That is a degree of stupidity that I didn't believe you capable of, Bill.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 08:06 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
Give me a break. For people who like looking at pictures of children for sexual purposes, actually and obsessively looking at pictures of what they dream of having is nothing less than dangerous to any child in their vicinity.


I'm not certain that pictures would always be a gateway to action. I'd like to think that there are a large number of those so inclined who are content simply with pictures. Having said that, I'm not advocating that the traffic in pictures be allowed.

I suppose that there might even be some use for pictures in the treatment of pedophiles.

Quote:
But I don't know any 'normal' adults who desire sex with a twelve year old.
Why would they? What can a twelve year old offer an adult sexually that another adult can't or doesn't offer?


Since it is a mental illness, I do believe that there is room for more humane handling of such incidents and I certainly agree with the judge from the first article, who it must be noted, did not have a problem with "bad sex crime laws".

His concern, like mine, is that there is a pack mentality surrounding these people and they are sometimes dealt unreasonable sentences. Actually, in a better world, those with mental illnesses wouldn't get prison sentences.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 08:14 pm
@aidan,
I think these are mainly male fantasies, aidan.

Quote:
Why would they? What can a twelve year old offer an adult sexually that another adult can't or doesn't offer?


A 12 year old girl isn't threatening to an adult male--she's vulnerable, powerless, naive, non-demanding, easily controlled and dominated, and would never have equal status in the relationship, sexually or otherwise. She's the easily manipulated and easily used partner. Sort of perfect for a very inadequate adult male, don't you think?

And, the other part of this male fantasy, is that this 12 or 13 year old is really desirous of having sex. So he's allegedly satisfying her desires too. He's helping her in some way. He's "awakening" her.

This not only isn't "normal", it borders on the delusional. It's a rationalization for victimizing someone. It's all about power and control.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 08:44 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
It's all about power and control.
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but a big part of sex for guys is the conquest part, the ravishing the female part. I know the feminists have this fantasy about doing away with this but it is coded in our genes, you all best find a way to work around it.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 09:31 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
His concern, like mine, is that there is a pack mentality surrounding these people and they are sometimes dealt unreasonable sentences. Actually, in a better world, those with mental illnesses wouldn't get prison sentences.


The law does not generally take into account mental illness, beyond competency to stand trial, or whether the person was legally insane at the time of the criminal act.

Being a sociopath (a mental illness) does not excuse burglary. Being an alcoholic (an addictive mental illness) does not excuse vehicular homicide while alcohol impaired. Being a pedophile (a mental illness) does not excuse child molestation or child sexual abuse. Most people in prisons would probably qualify for, or meet the criteria for, some psychiatric diagnosis. That does not mean that prisons are unnecessary.

What has happened, at least in the public mind, is some confusion of actual sexual contact crimes against children with the possession of child pornography. Because it is assumed that those who view child pornography would be more likely to actually engage in sexual contact with a child, some of the pornography possession laws were meant to serve as deterrents to further criminal actions toward children. Additionally, the punishments for possession of child pornography were meant to deter the production and distribution of such material, by limiting the demand.

It is certainly generally accepted that child pornography harms both the children depicted in the material, and poses some threat of potential actual harm to children in general--but we really don't know the magnitude of such a potential threat. Some people who view child pornography may never actually act on their fantasies or urges. Some people who actually sexually abuse children have never viewed child pornography. But most people do want to stop the production and distribution of child pornography, and, for that reason, they want the possession laws maintained, but with better sentencing guidelines.

What has happened, is that the sentencing guidelines for possession of child pornography have allowed too much leeway for multiple charges against the offender. I believe there was one case (possibly in Arizona) in which a man was found in possession of 20 pictures of children, and he was sentenced to 10 years for each of them, to run consecutively, for a total of 200 years. Clearly that is absurd. But that is the way that sentencing has been going, with separate charges for each photo, and the sentences have consequently been disproportionately long--often much longer than sentences given to those who actually sexually abuse children.

So, some revision of the sentencing guidelines for possession of child pornography certainly seems to be in order. I do believe that it should remain a criminal offense. Unlike Hawkeye, I do not see such material as being harmless or innocuous. The criminal laws against possession do reflect the prevailing sentiment and will of the community. This is not the government acting as thought police or the Gestapo or invading people's privacy. This reflects prevailing public opinion and the will of the people. Most people do view child pornography as one link in a chain which poses an actual harm or risk to children, and punishing possession may help to decrease the production and distribution of child pornography. In that regard, stiff prison sentences can be a powerful deterrent to possession, but sentences must also be reasonable and in line with the actual nature of the crime. They certainly should not exceed sentences which would be given to those who actually commit sexual offenses against children.

What also tends to get lost in discussions of topics like this is the fact that most children who are sexually abused are not abused by strangers. They are abused by a parent, a step parent, a sibling, a relative, a neighbor, a friend of the family--someone who is known to them. Child pornography may play little or no role in much of this, particularly when this goes on within a family. By focusing so much public attention, and our laws, on preventing strangers from harming our children, we may lose sight of the very real dangers to children which are much closer to home.

JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 09:43 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
but a big part of sex for guys is the conquest part, the ravishing the female part.


You're going to have to stop making these silly assumptions for all people, all men, all woman, all children, Hawk.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 09:57 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Being a sociopath (a mental illness) does not excuse burglary. Being an alcoholic (an addictive mental illness) does not excuse vehicular homicide while alcohol impaired. Being a pedophile (a mental illness) does not excuse child molestation or child sexual abuse. Most people in prisons would probably qualify for, or meet the criteria for, some psychiatric diagnosis. That does not mean that prisons are unnecessary.


The law, I'm sure you've heard, Firefly, is an ass. It does point to prisons being vastly overused, with horrendous consequences for society as a whole.

Quote:
What has happened, is that the sentencing guidelines for possession of child pornography have allowed too much leeway for multiple charges against the offender. I believe there was one case (possibly in Arizona) in which a man was found in possession of 20 pictures of children, and he was sentenced to 10 years for each of them, to run consecutively, for a total of 200 years. Clearly that is absurd. But that is the way that sentencing has been going, with separate charges for each photo, and the sentences have consequently been disproportionately long--often much longer than sentences given to those who actually sexually abuse children.


If that is truly the case, that is patently absurd; so absurd that the prosecutor should have been disbarred and the judge should have been impeached for abusing their station.

Quote:

So, some revision of the sentencing guidelines for possession of child pornography certainly seems to be in order. I do believe that it should remain a criminal offense. Unlike Hawkeye, I do not see such material as being harmless or innocuous.


I agree, agree and agree.

Quote:
The criminal laws against possession do reflect the prevailing sentiment and will of the community. This is not the government acting as thought police or the Gestapo or invading people's privacy. This reflects prevailing public opinion and the will of the people.


I don't believe that's true or at least I don't want to believe that's true. We've seen prevailing sentiment and the will of the community exhibited in this thread and that is a degree of ugliness that simply doesn't belong in a moral society's system of justice.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 09:58 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
You're going to have to stop making these silly assumptions for all people, all men, all woman, all children, Hawk.
I am not making assumptions, I am making claim of what the norms are. There are always abnormal as well. If you care to dispute my statements of fact fine, but I do not accept your put down that I do not know what I am talking about...
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 10:00 pm
Quote:
Demented Piece Of ****, Shorteyes Sickness


Really really dumb tags.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 11:25 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but a big part of sex for guys is the conquest part, the ravishing the female part. I know the feminists have this fantasy about doing away with this but it is coded in our genes, you all best find a way to work around it.


Quote:
I am not making assumptions, I am making claim of what the norms are.


Your "claim of what the norms are" is nothing more than an assumption. Have you made extensive studies of male sexual fantasies to determine these "norms"? Are you basing this conclusion on research done by others? Since you feel this is "coded in our genes" are you further assuming your statements apply to all men in all cultures?

My point about the need for power and control referred to the possible appeal of a 12 year old girl to an adult male. Since you responded to that comment with your statement about "conquest" and "ravishing the female" you proved my point. Domination is one factor in why adults seek sex with children, and it is why the crime is designated statutory rape. Even the viewing of child pornography may satisfy these fantasies of domination and control. To dominate and control is to debase, to "violate" in every sense of the word. It may well be more about aggression than about sex--and that would be true of all acts of rape.

If you want to attribute such fantasies, and possibly behaviors, to all men, you really should back it up with factual data. What you are saying, whether you realize it or not, is quite offensive, because I was talking about a 12 year old girl, and your response suggests she would be a "conquest". As I said initially, only a very inadequate male would seek out a child in order to have a "conquest". A normal male is not afraid to be on equal footing with an adult female partner.

Children are easy targets, easy victims. They assure a "conquest" to a predatory male. Unfortunately, this harms the female child, and her sense of self esteem, but I suppose we are not supposed to consider that, are we, Hawkeye? After all, men will be men, it's in their genes, and all that rot. Is this your idea of an acceptable norm, Hawkeye? Is this why you see child pornography as harmless?
 

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