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What is your fundamental moral compass?

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 04:10 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
So yours is similar to mine then? Greatest happiness, least unhappiness?

Yes, pretty much.

Robert Gentel wrote:
]One thing to keep in mind is that happiness/unhappiness is not limited to the participants. Observer happiness might be a factor that changes your calculations here, and if the newborns have family (even if not with them) it might constitute a greater amount of unhappiness.

It would. But would it make me comfortable running into the crowd of newborns if there were no bystanders, and if the babies were orphans whom noone would miss? I don't think so. This added assumption wouldn't resolve the conflict between my intuitions and my theory of the case.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 04:21 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
Thomas wrote:
They find that we behave as if we value our own lives at about $5 million. I don't think any realistic number of chicken would lay enough eggs to make up for that.

the reality is closer to $20,000

Seriously? You seem like a reasonably average person to me as far as risk-taking is concerned. If I were to offer you $2,000 for playing Russian Roulette with a ten-chamber revolver and one live bullet in it -- would you seriously be indifferent about accepting? Because that's what "valuing your own life at $20,000" means. What makes you think that's the reality?
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 04:28 pm
@Thomas,
If that's the measure; $5,000,000 doesn't work either. You can't tell me you'd pull that trigger for $500,000.
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 04:55 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
As a kid I was once discussing medical ethics with a Brazilian surgeon when he told me something that changed my life forever.

"What is your ultimate criteria?" he asked me. He went on to explain that any ethical issue boils down to core values, and depending on what you consider your "golden rule" your ethical calculations can produce different results.

It's very true, but few people bother to codify their core moral philosophy. Here is an example that inspired this thread:

My personal moral code boils down to the ideal of least amount of suffering. Obviously quantifying suffering is subjective and so is opinions about how best to minimize it but this is still a moral compass that sets my moral bearings to the best that I can interpret these subjective issues.

So when someone says they value American life (or Mexican life) more than those suffering more it clearly violates my own moral code. In a choice between helping a starving foreigner and an unemployed American I'd not choose my nationality over the one who is suffering the most. My ideal is to minimize the most suffering and it's clear where my aid should go in that situation.

I was trying to imagine what kind of moral compass would produce the tribalism I disdain, and really began to wonder if it wasn't just the typical absence of an "ultimate criteria", as Dr. Edson put it, at all. Most people don't bother thinking about it this far, but I would invite those here at a2k to give it a try.

What is the core values in your moral compass? And how does that work in practice for you?

If you don't have one yet, try to codify one. Ideally they are generic (not too specific) as they should be core values that can apply to ANY situation to produce a theoretical ideal.
OK, here is mine, but recourse to experience leads me to believe that it is hypocritical.
In theory, I believe in libertarianism and Individualism, that everyone has the right to make his own mistakes.

My moral compass is and was: to NOT violate the rights of others.

My moral compass is and was: to not interfere with anyone who chooses
to engage in self-destructive activity neither totally (suicide) nor partially.

In my opinion, taking illegal drugs is self-destructive (except for medical purposes).

In the 1970s, my liberal Democrat ex-girlfriend, Marilyn lived with me
and she returned to live with me again in the 1980s, with her child, Nancy
between ages 2 and 4. Nancy is not genetically related to me.

Marilyn was therapeutically addicted to Valium in the 1970s
because she was socially withdrawn, shy n bashful.
She was cut off from her legal source of supply (doctor died).
She bawt Valium illegally, and got into other drugs: marijuana,
occasional cocaine (crack ?) quaaludes. She never tried heroin.

On a given Saturday morning I saw her drink most of a pint of 161 proof rum.
She announced that she was going to put Nancy into her car
and drive to her favorite crack house to spend the day.

I was somewhat alarmed and distressed by this turn of events.
I pointed out that driving with most of a pint of rum in her was dangerous.
The odds of a vehicular collision were very risky,
especially considering the fact that Marilyn openly admitted
that she was a poor driver even sober, thus
exposing the innocent public of NY + Marilyn & child to significant peril.

She insisted. I proved myself a hypocrit in preventing her from leaving.
I did my impression of Gov. George Wallace blocking the door.
I watched her very, very acutely to see if she moved in the direction
of where I had my guns. (Marilyn is a liberal and does not like guns.)
She did not think of that; if she had moven in that direction,
I 'd have pounced on her, to restrain her; not difficult, she is petite.

Marilyn threatened to call the police. I said, (approximately)
"as owner of this property:
I give u permission to use that fone, right there, to call the police
and explain to them that u just drank a lot of 161 proof rum,
your driver 's license is expired, your car insurance is expired,
u wanna put your 4 year old child into your car and
drive to a crack house for the day's recreation,
but your boyfriend will not let u leave."

She changed her mind about calling the police.
Instead, she picked up a big radio and hit me on the head with it,
after warning me. It was a lite blow; ineffective.
Then she gave up.

Quad est demonstratum: I am a libertarian hypocrit, moral compass violator.

( Incidentally, Marilyn has since visited 2 hospitals, resulting in
her liberation from addiction to drugs, except for cigarettes.
Nancy was briefly married, sprouted, giving birth to a son who is probably around 15 by now. )

Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 08:13 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
If that's the measure; $5,000,000 doesn't work either. You can't tell me you'd pull that trigger for $500,000.

Don't be so sure. I pull a trigger like that every time I cross a busy street to say hi to a friend on the other side. I pull it when I drive my car in New York area traffic. I pull it with every ice cream I eat despite my diabetes. Granted, those are not 1:10 risks for $500,000 rewards. More like $50 rewards for 1:100,000 risks. But the logic of the argument is the same. And I didn't want to distract ehBeth from it by asking her to imagine a 100,000-chamber revolver.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 09:18 pm
Can anyone tell me why suffering is bad and why death is to be avoided ?
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 09:25 pm
@Ionus,
not really.
0 Replies
 
ghostinthemachine702
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 09:31 pm
@Ionus,
i was about to ask the question why suffering was bad.
one could ask as well, what makes pleasure good?

suffering, pleasure...

black and white, shades of gray, a sprectrum of full blown color..

i have been trying to nullify my aversion to pain, and my attraction to pleasure for years.

why is life good, death bad?

would life be better if we never died?

would it be worse?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 11:47 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Can anyone tell me why suffering is bad and why death is to be avoided ?
Suffering is bad because it hurts. Death can only be avoided, but u can molt.

www.IANDS.org





David
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 02:23 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Suffering is bad because it hurts.
No, hurt is good because it teaches the way it is supposed to...some people have no feeling and they have great problems with injuries. Hurt teaches you not to do it. So why is suffering bad ?

Death can be procrastinated, not avoided.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 03:37 am
@Ionus,
"It's doom alone that counts." Bob Dylan.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 04:03 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Would you entertain the notion that perhaps you have a different moral compass than you believe you have and that you acted exactly as it read despite your intentions?

Interesting story.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  3  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 04:28 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Can anyone tell me why suffering is bad and why death is to be avoided ?


I makes me feel better when suffering in others is alleviated due to empathy, which I assume to be an individual and tribal survival mechanism. Whether the suffering is good or bad is subjective, and all too often the sufferer sees the experience as positive with hindsight anyway.
Death can't be avoided. I think death should be delayed if one is in a position to assist and the dying wish to live. I think accidental death of an elderly person is less tragic than the accidental death of someone much younger. (That could open a can of worms).
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 06:29 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
It would. But would it make me comfortable running into the crowd of newborns if there were no bystanders, and if the babies were orphans whom noone would miss? I don't think so. This added assumption wouldn't resolve the conflict between my intuitions and my theory of the case.


I'm saying your theory of the case needs to take into account your own suffering as well. So if you suffer that much killing newborns (you softie!) this must be weighed in the balance as well.

Also, if your criteria is "most happiness" you might consider that you are ending a lot of future happiness as well (this is one way I justify saving children over adults).

I don't know if that resolves your internal conflict but it solves mine for me, the newborns live. Their current lack of awareness doesn't change that they will suffer some pain while dying and to me the future happiness I am cutting short must also go into the balance.

The greater relative awareness of the adult prior to death (mainly momentary fear) does not outweigh these things to me, and the adult would be my choice.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 06:33 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Can anyone tell me why suffering is bad and why death is to be avoided ?


I can tell you my reasoning for it*, but the point of this thread is that this kind of value judgement boils down to an ipse dixit at its heart and I'm trying to get to people's core values (which all boil down to an ipse dixit eventually).


*I do not enjoy suffering and greatly value my own life, and establishing a social contract to minimize suffering and death helps me avoid such fates myself. Additionally, the suffering and death of others causes me to suffer, so helping to prevent it is in my emotional interest.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 06:48 am
How do you learn to walk without falling over ? Suffering is not only a maturing process it is what some of our greatest people ever have gone through by the bucket loads. I was surprised so many said prevent suffering as though it is a bad thing....it is neutral, the result of suffering may be good or bad.

As for avoiding death, that is only necessary to reproduce. Once you have reproduced in sufficient numbers (whatever that is ? ) death is essential to make room for the young, and in the case of the human mind to allow a different way of thinking to emerge (you cant teach an old dog new tricks).

Premature death is a bad thing, suffering from which no learning is possible is a bad thing, but neither are intrinsically bad yet are cited throughout this thread as things to be avoided and prevented by helping others.

Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 06:51 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Premature death is a bad thing, suffering from which no learning is possible is a bad thing, but neither are intrinsically bad yet are cited throughout this thread as things to be avoided and prevented by helping others.


What is inherently "bad" or "good"? For example, why do you find "learning" good? Is it inherently good or just a subjective value you have (which I happen to share)? These are value judgments, bad or good is subjective, which is why I ask for people to try to codify the core values upon which they make such value judgments.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 06:55 am
@Robert Gentel,
I can say premature death is a bad thing because if there is too much of it life will die out.

I can say suffering from which no learning is possible is a bad thing because it's purpose is not being fulfilled....it is simply pointless, a waste of life energy.

Whether we like it or not, understand it or not, life has a purpose and good and bad are derived from that as subjective values, but some can also be grouped as common values that a species would collectively hold true.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 07:23 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
I can say premature death is a bad thing because if there is too much of it life will die out.


Ok, I'll show you what I mean about it all boiling down to an ipse dixit if you can tolerate childlike inquisition:

So? Why is life dying out a bad thing? You asked why death is bad, likewise I can ask why life is good.

Quote:
I can say suffering from which no learning is possible is a bad thing because it's purpose is not being fulfilled....it is simply pointless, a waste of life energy.


So? What's wrong with waste? What's wrong with pointlessness? Fundamentally you are defining them as "good" or "bad" and these are subjective value judgments, you can show reasoning for it, and probably even reasoning I agree with, but it ultimately boils down to a subjective value judgment somewhere.

Quote:
Whether we like it or not, understand it or not, life has a purpose and good and bad are derived from that as subjective values, but some can also be grouped as common values that a species would collectively hold true.


Upon what basis do you declare that "life has a purpose", much less that "good" and "bad" are defined by it?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 07:52 am
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
So? Why is life dying out a bad thing? You asked why death is bad, likewise I can ask why life is good.
We are a cog in a machine. We simply have to know what is good for us, not what the machine does. The word good has a predetermined basis of good for us. We determine what is good for us based on instincts beyond our control.
Quote:
So? What's wrong with waste? What's wrong with pointlessness?
The universe is increasing in complexity, from life to stars and galaxies, that is a point. Moving in other directions is pointless.
Quote:
Upon what basis do you declare that "life has a purpose", much less that "good" and "bad" are defined by it
Life having a purpose is much like a rock falling towards centre of the earth. It could fly off the other way, or shatter or a thousand possible things, but out of many possibilities, it falls. Purpose is what was meant to happen.
Quote:
these are subjective value judgments
All judgement is subjective, whether it has value or not is determined by the greater number of valuers.
Our instincts are beyond our control. If our life is not valued as good, forces beyond out control will extinct us. There is an external good and bad.
 

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