40
   

What is your fundamental moral compass?

 
 
High Seas
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 07:56 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Whether we like it or not, understand it or not, life has a purpose and good and bad are derived from that as subjective values, but some can also be grouped as common values that a species would collectively hold true.

That's a noble principle - unfortunately leading to no logistical implementation because of the inescapable law of unintended consequences. Stopping subsidies for AIDS drugs provides a classic demonstration: they keep people who contracted the disease via their own deliberate actions alive long enough not only to infect others but also to destroy the usefulness of the original drugs:
Quote:
Family members like Ms. Kamukama and her cousin will often share one set of pills, an act of love that leads to disaster. Incomplete treatment means both will probably die, but may first develop drug-resistant AIDS and pass it on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/10/world/africa/10aids.html?pagewanted=2&hpw

It's not just sub-Saharan Africa, and it's not just AIDS. Would the ethical course of action have been not to supply the original patients with medication in the first place? If your criterion is to maximize the greatest good for the greatest number, that's obviously optimal.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 08:17 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
Stopping subsidies for AIDS drugs provides a classic demonstration: they keep people who contracted the disease via their own deliberate actions alive long enough not only to infect others but also to destroy the usefulness of the original drugs:
I dont see how not giving enough AIDS drugs to Africa impacts on what we would collectively hold to be good. Have we decided sending drugs is a good thing ? How many decided ? It may turn out that AIDS in itself is a good thing like its distant cousin, the Black Death.

Quote:
It's not just sub-Saharan Africa, and it's not just AIDS. Would the ethical course of action have been not to supply the original patients with medication in the first place? If your criterion is to maximize the greatest good for the greatest number, that's obviously optimal.
But it is not my criterion to maximise in that manner....and it is not obvious what is optimal. It may be best for the human race to have a great dying off. I am saying that it is good for death to be avoided long enough to raise offspring. That seems to be at least a major purpose of life. This does not mean everytime things have to turn out this way, simply that averaged over large numbers and long periods of time it is good if it does.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 08:46 am
@Ionus,
David wrote:
Suffering is bad because it hurts.
Ionus wrote:
No, hurt is good because it teaches the way it is supposed to...
"supposed to" by what authority??



Ionus wrote:
some people have no feeling and they have great problems with injuries.
Hurt teaches you not to do it.
That can be and has been learned painlessly by greater and more meticulous application of attention.


Ionus wrote:
So why is suffering bad ?
Your response was not logically acceptable; I re-iterate my earlier reply.


Ionus wrote:
Death can be procrastinated, not avoided.
U have evidence of this ?





David
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 08:48 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
We are a cog in a machine. We simply have to know what is good for us, not what the machine does.


You are still defining what is "good for us" based on your subjective values (in this case, life = good). I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with your values, just trying to show you that all this kind of thing boils down to you making up a subjective criterion for "good".

Quote:
The word good has a predetermined basis of good for us.


Says you, this is your subjective definition of "good for us".

Quote:
Quote:
So? What's wrong with waste? What's wrong with pointlessness?
The universe is increasing in complexity, from life to stars and galaxies, that is a point. Moving in other directions is pointless.


You answer what is wrong with pointless by saying it's pointless. At some point you are going to have to just admit you have core values that are subjective that you use to make these determinations.

This thread is about trying to articulate logically defensible core values.

Quote:
Life having a purpose is much like a rock falling towards centre of the earth. It could fly off the other way, or shatter or a thousand possible things, but out of many possibilities, it falls. Purpose is what was meant to happen.


Upon what basis do you declare "what was meant to happen" and then that this is our "purpose" in life and furthermore that our "purpose" in life is "good"?

Quote:
All judgement is subjective, whether it has value or not is determined by the greater number of valuers.


So are you saying that popularity makes right, or popularity = "good"? Is this the basis you use for defining "good"?

Quote:
Our instincts are beyond our control. If our life is not valued as good, forces beyond out control will extinct us. There is an external good and bad.


Why is our extinction "bad"? This too, is just another ipse dixit (just like mine to the effect that the ultimate criterion is a utilitarian happiness/suffering meter is as well).
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 11:52 am
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
but it ultimately boils down to a subjective value judgment somewhere.


Which can't be tolerated in practical terms. 301 million people running around the USA operating on individual subjective value judgments is an impossibility.

Hence the argument from authority arises. It might be secular or religious. I prefer the latter. But whichever it is it points the moral compass for you except maybe on those occasions when you are forced to choose between an old lady and 10 unbaptised new-borns the consideration of which allows a frisson of feeling free in a conversation in a salon or another location where people with time on their hands gather to sort out who is shagging who or to comiserate with each other after having sorted it out.

It could be that the search for such frissons implies a sense of not feeling free.
0 Replies
 
BorisKitten
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 12:57 pm
I have not read every response to this question, but I have been thinking about it.

For ME, I have come to believe over the years that Human Kindness is the most valuable thing to human beans.

Thus, I try to practice that kindness virtually every time I come into contact with another human being. Every time, everywhere. If I cannot be kind, I will be silent.

Sigh. I think I've failed to answer the initial question. But I couldn't think of any more "fundamental moral compass," in my own life and understanding.

Cripes, this sounds like the parents' mantra of "If you can't think of anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Never mind. Move along, folks, move along.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 01:44 pm
@BorisKitten,
BorisKitten wrote:
I have not read every response to this question, but I have been thinking about it.

For ME, I have come to believe over the years that Human Kindness is the most valuable thing to human beans.

Thus, I try to practice that kindness virtually every time I come into contact with another human being.
Every time, everywhere. If I cannot be kind, I will be silent.

Sigh. I think I've failed to answer the initial question. But I couldn't think of any more "fundamental moral compass,"
in my own life and understanding.

Cripes, this sounds like the parents' mantra of "If you can't think of anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Never mind. Move along, folks, move along.
Of the people who have been revived from death (= no EKG, no EEG, no RESPIRATION for a few minutes)
who have memories thereof and who have had life review experiences
the consensus, nationwide, was that after your incarnate life u judge that life

by 2 criteria:

1. Love, expressed as kindness

and

2. Learning

www.IANDS.org





David
BorisKitten
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 02:22 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Why, thank you, friend, for this post.

I must have accidentally stumbled upon the things important to those who have died & been resuscitated, because only learning (to me) is as important as human kindness.

Humans, in all their glorious differences, are delightful to me.

Learning is, to me, the cure for depression (from which I've suffered).

I've probably already said that my brother (now passed away) told me that, when he was "dead," he saw/felt nothing at all. He told me the only difficult part of "dying" was, in fact, living, and feeling all of the pain again.

Note: Er, my brother was "saved from death" (a 15-minute one), to tell me these things, and only actually died several years later.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 02:28 pm
@BorisKitten,
BorisKitten wrote:
Why, thank you, friend, for this post.

I must have accidentally stumbled upon the things important to those who have died & been resuscitated,
because only learning (to me) is as important as human kindness.

Humans, in all their glorious differences, are delightful to me.

Learning is, to me, the cure for depression (from which I've suffered).

I've probably already said that my brother (now passed away) told me that, when he was "dead," he saw/felt nothing at all. He told me the only difficult part of "dying" was, in fact, living, and feeling all of the pain again.

Note: Er, my brother was "saved from death" (a 15-minute one), to tell me these things, and only actually died several years later.
U r welcome.
Some people have been revived in hospitals on multiple occasions,
concerning which thay have had memories as to some of them, but not others.

Some have returned with additional information
that was not available to them, incarnate; remote observations,
objectively verified.





David
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 02:45 pm
@Ionus,
Could I offer another pair of opposites to answer whey suffering is bad?

Someone said that the in the US during the 20th C., we put forth an idea that work is bad, so we made work largely inane and purposeless by mechanizing it which actually made work more boring and demeaned the worker more than handcrafting does.

The point of the commentator being that work and leisure are opposites and both have value as part of a pair. It strikes me, therefore, that suffering . . . not to the level of masochism but to the point of self-denial or temporary self-sacrifice is a good and is a necessary complement to indulgence. One abstains from gratuitous satisfaction until one has saved enough or done enough work to earn the satisfaction one desires.

As far as death is concerned, that depends on the culture. In cultures in which there is a belief in re-incarnation, death is just a passage and not a finality.
plainoldme
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 02:49 pm
Actually, when you think of it, the aim of Western medicine seems to be to avoid death at the cost of living a miserable life.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 03:24 pm
@plainoldme,
Ivan Illich expressed a similar idea in Medical Nemesis. He said that the objective of the profession as a whole was to keep the population in a permanent state of sub-lethal illness. And all surrounded by a cloud of high sounding moral perfections.

It's a bit extreme I know but it's a long while since he wrote it and there's definite evidence that it is happening whatever the cause.
plainoldme
 
  3  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 05:25 pm
@spendius,
"Sub-lethal illness" is quite a phrase. It immediately brings to mind all the "ask your doctor" ads on television for drugs who side effects seem worse than the ailment said drugs are supposed to cure.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 08:01 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
You are still defining what is "good for us" based on your subjective values
I am basing them on science and objectivity. Life is doing exactly what its design lends it to do, and we do not need to understand what that is, simply what is good for us. Our subjective interpretation is based on the bigger picture. This is why I argue suffering is not automatically bad because THAT is subjective.

Quote:
Quote:
The word good has a predetermined basis of good for us.

Says you, this is your subjective definition of "good for us".
Just because all language has a subjective definition does not mean there is not something real involved. To talk about the meaning of a train as being subjective will not stop the train from running over the top of you. It is very real.

Quote:
Quote:
The universe is increasing in complexity, from life to stars and galaxies, that is a point. Moving in other directions is pointless.

You answer what is wrong with pointless by saying it's pointless.
No I answer what is wrong with pointless by saying it all has direction and a point and everything else is pointless by definition. What is wrong with pointless is that it doesnt exist except as a theoretical alternative. Extinction, survival, near exticntion, change, it all has a point.

Quote:
Upon what basis do you declare "what was meant to happen"
No other possibility exists. Time is linear and can not be changed.

Quote:
then that this is our "purpose" in life and furthermore that our "purpose" in life is "good"?
I explained that before.

Quote:
Quote:
All judgement is subjective, whether it has value or not is determined by the greater number of valuers.
So are you saying that popularity makes right, or popularity = "good"? Is this the basis you use for defining "good"?
If by popularity you mean the majority of valuers over a large number of people over a large amount of time, then yes but only the subjective good. There is still an objective good which may be in total contrast to the subjective good, such as suffering benefits a lot of individuals who I am sure do not see it at as good.

Quote:
Quote:
Our instincts are beyond our control. If our life is not valued as good, forces beyond out control will extinct us. There is an external good and bad.
Why is our extinction "bad"?
Our extinction is good if there is no "external" valuation of our life as good. It would be bad from our subjective point of view.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 08:08 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Quote:
No, hurt is good because it teaches the way it is supposed to
..."supposed to" by what authority??
By the authority of physical reality.

Quote:
That can be and has been learned painlessly by greater and more meticulous application of attention.
The human mind is not capable of "meticulous application of attention" at all times. Suffering has an all season capablity.

Quote:
Quote:
Death can be procrastinated, not avoided.
U have evidence of this ?

pro·cras·ti·nate (pr-krst-nt, pr-)
v. pro·cras·ti·nat·ed, pro·cras·ti·nat·ing, pro·cras·ti·nates
v.intr.
To put off doing something, especially out of habitual carelessness or laziness.
v.tr.
To postpone or delay needlessly.

a·void (-void)
tr.v. a·void·ed, a·void·ing, a·voids
1. To stay clear of; shun. See Synonyms at escape.
2. To keep from happening: avoid illness with rest and a balanced diet.
3. Law To annul or make void; invalidate.
4. Obsolete To void or expel.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 08:12 pm
@plainoldme,
Quote:
Someone said that the in the US during the 20th C., we put forth an idea that work is bad, so we made work largely inane and purposeless by mechanizing it which actually made work more boring and demeaned the worker more than handcrafting does.

The point of the commentator being that work and leisure are opposites and both have value as part of a pair. It strikes me, therefore, that suffering . . . not to the level of masochism but to the point of self-denial or temporary self-sacrifice is a good and is a necessary complement to indulgence. One abstains from gratuitous satisfaction until one has saved enough or done enough work to earn the satisfaction one desires.
Good point.
Quote:
As far as death is concerned, that depends on the culture.
This is a subjective value. I would argue that whilst death has a subjective bad, it has an objective good.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 09:28 pm
@Ionus,

Death is a fake, a sham, a deception; its not real. Its just molting.





David
Eorl
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 10:09 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Perhaps spending a couple weeks with someone who has experienced it could cure you of that delusion.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 10:31 pm
@Eorl,
Eorl wrote:
Perhaps spending a couple weeks with someone who has experienced it could cure you of that delusion.
I suspect that u have confused death of the human body, the shell,
with death of the person whom it housed and who operated it.
My surgeon informed me that I died 2ice during surgery. (I have no memory thereof.)
For years, I have had discussions with others who have been revived from death,
defined as no EKG, no EEG and no respiration for several minutes. www.IANDS.org

I 've also discussed it with medical doctors who are actively researching the subject.





David
Eorl
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 10:46 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I suspect you've confused death with being extremely ill or temporarily not entirely alive by medical standards.

Like I said, couple of weeks with any dead animal should help.

The body, the shell, is all there is. You can't prove otherwise. Nobody ever has. I doubt they ever will.
 

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