Helping Americans understand just how rich we are

@georgeob1,

Quote:

We have also maintained a much larger defense establishment than other OECD nations, something you have argued is a waste that would be better used in such giving. Many of us don't agree with you on this score. Certainly through the fall of the Soviet Union, now 20 years ago there was a clear need for it, and our military itself beneffitted other nations otherwise in peril.

Bullshit, Gob1. You living in a McCarthy induced fantasy world. Your military has put and continues to put millions in peril.

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What can i do?
What can i do?
What can i do?
What can i do?
What can i do?

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

Hello Bill,

1) My argument is not Cyclo's argument.

2) I'm not sure how many times I must have in print here in this thread, but I agree with RG's every point sans one.

3) That one point is in no way the core of this issue.

4) You're irked that my reaction doesn't seem to get that RG just wants a level playing field?

I said (now multiple times):

Diest TKO wrote:

I agree with you about not handicapping 3rd world nations with tariffs and leveling the playing field. This seems to me fair, and sensible. Why not keep the topic here?

So please, if you feel so inclined to comment on the nature of my replies. Make sure you've read them Bill. I don't mind repeating myself, but come on...

T
K
O

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@OCCOM BILL,

Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Money sent abroad provides little to no tangible effects on people's lives here in the States at all. It is hardly comparable.

Not true, because foreign recipients of your dollars will spend them in the United States. It's the only place where the US dollar is legal tender.

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Not exactly true. Where Robert's living now the U.S. Dollar rules and doesn't suffer the daily devaluation of the native currency. I suspect he'd have to look pretty hard to find a merchant who wouldn't accept it.

U r absolutely right, Bill. In some of my travels overseas, if I dropped a dollar,
it woud never hit the floor. Thay lunge for it.

David

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@OCCOM BILL,

Wouldn't be an authentic A2K Moralizing(tm) thread, without you stopping by, Bill. Nice to see ya.

I'll ask you the same question I asked RG: is there any nation on Earth whose behavior in this area is materially different then ours?

Cycloptichorn

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@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Not exactly true. Where Robert's living now the U.S. Dollar rules and doesn't suffer the daily devaluation of the native currency. I suspect he'd have to look pretty hard to find a merchant who wouldn't accept it.

That's correct. But I already discussed the very limited relevance of this exception in this post as well as this one. When dollar bills circulate as quasi-legal tender in foreign countries, they work out as interest-free loans to the US, and so yield a tiny benefit to it. But that doesn't redeem Cycloptichorn's erroneous argument for spending US dollars in the US rather than elsewhere. For every dollar that goes around because an American spends it, a dollar comes around to buy an American product or service. It doesn't matter if the American spends the dollar at home or abroad.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Not exactly true. Where Robert's living now the U.S. Dollar rules and doesn't suffer the daily devaluation of the native currency. I suspect he'd have to look pretty hard to find a merchant who wouldn't accept it.

That's correct. But I already discussed the very limited relevance of this exception in this post as well as this one. When dollar bills circulate as quasi-legal tender in foreign countries, they work out as interest-free loans to the US, and so yield a tiny benefit to it. But that doesn't redeem Cycloptichorn's erroneous argument for spending US dollars in the US rather than elsewhere. For every dollar that goes around because an American spends it, a dollar comes around to buy an American product or service. It doesn't matter if the American spends the dollar at home or abroad.

Help me understand where I'm wrong here.

If I buy a Ford pickup truck - not that I am planning on it, but still - and spend 15k on it a certain percentage goes to various groups - the company, the dealership, the workers for both of them. Let us say for purposes of this argument that 1500 of that 15k goes to the workers who assembled the truck.

If those workers are located in South America, Ford pays them in the local currency. They spend that local currency on groceries and goods that they order from domestic AND foreign sources. Some of that money EVENTUALLY will make it back to the US, but much of it will not - at least not in any sort of short run. Is this wrong?

Whereas 1500 given to the workers who are in a plant here in CA, they spend that money primarily on goods and groceries and other local places. Sure, some of those goods come from abroad, but the profits of selling them go to local companies, who then turn around and spend a higher percentage on local companies, which in turn enriches my local neighborhood to a far greater degree than if that money had been spent abroad.

I understand the velocity of money argument that Bill was referring to, and I think that it is a solid theory, but I am unsure that the actual application of it works out the same way. Is there actual scientific experimentation which shows that this theory works correctly in real life? Or, like many economic theories, does it become somewhat muddled in application?

Quote:

It doesn't matter if the American spends the dollar at home or abroad.

I know that we are running a massive trade imbalance and have been for a long time; which is to say that we import many more goods than we export. Is this not an indicator that wealth spent abroad exceeds wealth which is spent locally? I am specifically excluding investment dollars from this question.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Quote:

Most of the world would love to live with the wealth of the lowest 90% of America. This is a complete lack of perspective. The poor in America are filthy rich compared to the middle class of the majority of the world.

Don't play "poor me" for them, they wouldn't trade their place with the real poor of the world and most of the world would trade places with them in a heartbeat.

AND PREVIOUSLY

Quote:

"Americans largely don't begin to understand how filthy rich we are as a nation."

Are not morally equivalent statements. I think that you ought to come down from your sanctimonious high and recognize that most Americans do recognize their blessings, even poor Americans, but it is stupid to compare conditions in Burkano Fasso to Anytown, USA. They are different places so substantially so as to make comparisons them of little value for discussion.

But go ahead and vent. Only the worst part is that your words are exactly what one hears from the lips of rich industrialists like that millionaire owner of the coal mine disaster telling his workers how lucky they are to be his wage slaves since they don't live in the Third World.

btw: I think that you are completely wrong; the overwhelming majority of Americans know exactly how lucky they have it and understand how filthy rich we are as a nation.

1 Reply

Kuvasz wrote:

the overwhelming majority of Americans know exactly how lucky they have it and understand how filthy rich we are as a nation.

It's probably true but it doesn't invalidate the point that they (the Americans) don't have the slightest clue about what poor really means.

And because of the former premise, probably..

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@dadpad,

dadpad wrote:

What can i do?
What can i do?
What can i do?
What can i do?
What can i do?

Grow a cherry tomato plant. I'm totally serious. I will western union you all expenses. You don't have to provide any personal whatsoever. It may sound strange but I have worked the whole thing out. I'm a revolutionary, since I was a teenager. Do you like cherry tomatos?

1 Reply

@Francis,

Francis wrote:

Kuvasz wrote:
the overwhelming majority of Americans know exactly how lucky they have it and understand how filthy rich we are as a nation.

It's probably true but it doesn't invalidate the point that they (the Americans) don't have the slightest clue about what poor really means.

And because of the former premise, probably..

OK. Shall I also infer that the French, Germans, British, Swiss, Swedes, Italians, Spanish, etc. or you, Francis, "don't have the slightest clue about what poor really means." either?

It is at least mildly interesting that the United States, alone among the nations of the world, has long had a holiday dedicated to giving thanks to God (or whatever makes it for you these days) , for the blessings we enjoy. I think that does indicate some degree of national awareness.

Poverty exists in this country as it does in all others. It isn't the kind of wretched, life threatening poverty, to which Robert referred that exists in some other countries, but it is poverty none the less.

No one here has addressed at all the question of why some nations are poor and others not. Implicit in much of the commentary is the unstated notion that wealth or plenty in this nation - or any other advanced nation, from Germany to Singapore - must necessarily be based on the forced poverty of others. Stated another way this is the presumption that the production of goods is a zero sum gain, that added production in one place must be the result of reduced production in another. The absurdity of these notions is evident the moment they are stated clearly. Without addressing this question the pages of prose here are rather meaningless.

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Let the record indicate that I deny being "filthy".

David

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@Robert Gentel,

That only proves that our government is expert at spending money we don´t have.

It´s somewhat similar to how rich most Americans felt about three years ago, they borrowed and spent money they didn´t have.

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@cicerone imposter,

c.i.!

Good to see you!

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@msolga,

msolga, Don´t be too happy, because I´m posting from Lima, Peru.

Another thing about understanding about ¨feeling poor" is not true. There are many people who are poor when it comes to material wealth, but are much happier than many who consider themselves rich.

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@cicerone imposter,

I made a decision to stay out of here, c.i., so I have absolutely no opinion on that. Wink

I hope you stick around (after Peru), though!

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@msolga,

c. i. is back ... ... welcome back !!!
hbg

( did the cat drag him in ? Very Happy

time for a Drunk

)

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

If I buy a Ford pickup truck - not that I am planning on it, but still - and spend 15k on it a certain percentage goes to various groups - the company, the dealership, the workers for both of them. Let us say for purposes of this argument that 1500 of that 15k goes to the workers who assembled the truck.

I don't know the number for the particular workers who assembled the truck. But yes, 10-11k will go to American Ford workers of some kind. No problem in this step.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

If those workers are located in South America, Ford pays them in the local currency.

You're skipping the crucial step. To pay the South American workers in local currency, Ford must first buy the local currency, paying its seller with the US dollars it got from you. The South Americans to whom Ford sells the dollars want to spend them on something American. (That's why they're buying them.) So your dollars circulate back to America pretty early.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

They spend that local currency on groceries and goods that they order from domestic AND foreign sources. Some of that money EVENTUALLY will make it back to the US, but much of it will not - at least not in any sort of short run. Is this wrong?

Yes, it's wrong for two reasons: (1) The Vast majority of your dollars have already come back to the US shortly after Ford sold them for local currency to a buyer who wants to buy something America. (2) If by any chance some of your dollars keep circulating abroad -- say $100, but the argument works for any amount -- the US treasury department will find that $100 are amiss, and will print an extra $100 note to compensate.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I know that we are running a massive trade imbalance and have been for a long time; which is to say that we import many more goods than we export. Is this not an indicator that wealth spent abroad exceeds wealth which is spent locally?

Not really. It's an indicator that America consumes more than she produces, or that she spends more money than she earns (which is the same thing seen from different perspectives.) As long as America does that, somebody has to supply her with the goods she's not producing, and to lend her the money she's not earning.

But that's a story about America living beyond her means. It isn't a story about the rest of the world harming America.

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@Amigo,

Amigo... we already do every year and spinach, broccoli, potato, lettuce, sweet corn, beans... I've grown it and eaten it.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Quote:

You're skipping the crucial step. To pay the South American workers in local currency, Ford must first buy the local currency, paying its seller with the US dollars it got from you. The South Americans to whom Ford sells the dollars want to spend them on something American. (That's why they're buying them.) So your dollars circulate back to America pretty early.

So, if I understand right, that currency - American dollars - is likely bought by South American banks. Who then turn around and invest that money in America, or trade it to someone else who eventually does the same.

But do those dollars invested in American companies directly compare to dollars spent here in the states? If the $1500 worth of pay goes to people here, it gets spread about on a local scale. If it goes to a bank who then re-invests it here, it goes somewhere - but it's hard to say where, or to say how it directly helps the local economy in the same fashion.

On a smaller scale. If there is a producer of finely carved trunks who works in my hometown, and one who works abroad, how is it not more advantageous to me to purchase locally, in terms of the dollars spent being recycled into my local economy?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

Helping Americans understand just how rich we are

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