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Is Greece going to set off the long feared next wave of the Great Recession?

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 04:22 pm
@Brandon9000,
Those notices of acceleration and demands for payment- that legalese. It's all just Greek to me.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Sat 11 Jul, 2015 09:04 pm
Now they all start feuding ...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/11/greece-euro-exit-bailout-alexis-tsipras

Timo Soini, the nationalist True Finns leader, meanwhile, threatened to bring down the government in Helsinki if Alex Stubb, the finance minister, agreed to a new bailout for Greece. Stubb apparently came to the crunch meeting on a new bailout without a mandate to agree one.

.....The hard line was echoed by Peter Kazimir, finance minister of Slovakia, who said that new austerity measures tabled by Athens were already past their sell-by date.

......The widening gulf between eurozone hawks and doves paves the way for an acrimonious summit on Sunday, with France and Italy lining up against Germany and the northern and eastern Europeans. Matteo Renzi, the Italian prime minister, is expected to tell chancellor Angela Merkel that enough is enough and that Greece should not have to put up with any more humiliation.
Merkel is under intense pressure from the Americans not to “lose” Greece and is worried about her own legacy. But Greece fatigue is becoming endemic in Germany, and she faces growing unrest in her party ranks where Schäuble’s hard line is popular. She was said to have endorsed Schäuble’s tough position.

......On Thursday, Tsipras performed a remarkable U-turn and accepted more austerity measures than had been rejected in the referendum he called for five days earlier.
---------------

Why on earth did he initiate a referendum when he later on accepts more
austerity measures? Just to save face? Tsipras is a young and inexperienced politician who will bring his country to its breaking point.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 12:21 am
Quote:
It was given impetus when Paul Krugman, the Nobel laureate economist, praised it on his New York Times blog: “The trending hashtag ThisIsACoup is exactly right,” he wrote. “This goes beyond harsh into pure vindictiveness, complete destruction of national sovereignty, and no hope of relief.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/13/thisisacoup-germany-faces-backlash-over-tough-greece-bailout-demands

******* right.......There is no way that those ******* germans are going to get away with this so soon after they inflicted the NAZI's on us.
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 01:10 am
Word is that a deal has been reached about 10 minutes ago.

Third bailout, apparently.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 01:32 am
@Lordyaswas,
Lordyaswas wrote:

Word is that a deal has been reached about 10 minutes ago.

Third bailout, apparently.


Dont hold your breath that #3 will be any more the final solution than #1 and #2 were.....
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 01:57 am
@CalamityJane,
From your article.....

"The widening gulf between eurozone hawks and doves"


I would say that these are the weong terms to use, but cannot think of any other short and snappy words to fit the bill right now.
In my opinion, one camp sees the Euro as a political tool, the other sees it as an economical one, which is what it should have been from the start, being a world currency,

Those who used the Euro primarily as a means to hasten The United States of Europe were warned repeatedly (by people outside the Euro) that this type of scenario would happen time and time again.
These doom merchants were dismissed in the arrogant way that the EU leaders are very good at, and put into the 'anti' EU camp so they could be dismissed without thought in the future.

Now that the politicians have moved on one or two electoral generations and the Euro chickens have come home to roost, the new electorate have forgotten about the stupidity that went on during the rush to sign as many to the Euro scheme as possible, and now place the blame fairly and squarely onto the shoulders of those whose countries have unsurprisingly failed under the inflexibility of this stupid currency,

Like I said before on an earlier page. If Greece had not been allowed in, it would have kept the Drachma and would have devalued it accordingly, or raised/lowered interest rates as necessary.
Two vital mechanisms totally denied to Greece once it joined up.

Massive loans were seen as the solution, time and time again. Loans agreed by the various "Suits" who basically committed murder on Greece the day they allowed Greece to join, knowing full well that their entire economy was in serious trouble at the time.

Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy.....all the same. One economical fart in the wrong direction and they will all disappear down the plughole. These too have massive debt.
If they had stayed out of the Euro they would not be in such debt today, as once again they would have had the flexibility which comes with a sovereign currency as to tweak and adjust to suit each upturn or downturn.

The so called Hawks are now simply the new generation who have either forgotten how woefully stupid their "Federalism at all cost" political forefathers were, or they are just taking a hard line because their electorate are fed up with bailing out this poltical currency, knowing that the economical stability required will never be put in place, as long as EMU countries have individual power over their own affairs.

The Euro will only work if the Euro countries are all lumped up as States, and governed by ONE EUROPEAN GOVERNMENT. Something which Germany and France have wanted from day one.

To greatly contribute to the bankrupting of countries in the process of forcing through the Euro project is despicable, in my view.

People here and around the world have very short memories nowadays when it comes to this sort of thing. Greece is derided for being a country of tax evaders, and criticised for taking loan after loan after loan.

Greece was always a country of tax evaders. Germany and France knew that when they fiddled and smudged the rules to let them in. They knew that Greece would never change.

Greece had always managed despite being a country od tax evaders. They even managed after being thoroughly raped during WW2.
If the stolen money had been returned by Italy and Gernany, chances are it would not have been in such a bad way when the Euro ponzi scheme had been started up.
Chances are, if they had been more stable at the time, their Greek pride would have stopped them from joining the Euro, rather than having to go to, of all people, the Germans and Italians on bended knee because they were broke.

Please Sir, we know that you stripped our entire National Assets a few years ago, but ask that you now forgive us for being broke, so we can join your Euro. We'll even allow you to repeatedly humiliate us for several decades if you'll say yes.


'They' will do anything to save the Euro. The Troika have invested too much into it to let it fail. They don't give a stuff about how badly it has been set up, or what devastating effects it has on unsuitable economies, because in the end they know that they will put them into so much debt that those countries will HAVE to bend the knee.
Ireland has, so has Cyprus, Spain, Portugal. Italy could be in this position soon, and eventually (not too far in the future) so will France.

The Euro isn't about securing a comfortable retirement for the elderly, or feeding kids or building schools and hospitals.

It is about Central Power, pure and simple.

The U.S.E at all costs.


0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 09:36 am
@roger,
Oh, I'm not sure about that.

Mid 20th century Iran comes to mind.

Not that the dominant countries utilizing the Euro would do that with Greece, however. Would they?
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 10:38 am
From the Live Feed in The Telegraph.



Creditors have destroyed the eurozone.


German economic commentator Wolfgang Munchau has delivered one of the most scathing attacks on his nation this morning, for destroying the European Project. From his column in today's Financial Times.


"By forcing Alexis Tsipras into a humiliating defeat, Greece’s creditors have done a lot more than bring about regime change in Greece or endanger its relations with the eurozone. They have destroyed the eurozone as we know it and demolished the idea of a monetary union as a step towards a democratic political union.
In doing so they reverted to the nationalist European power struggles of the 19th and early 20th century. They demoted the eurozone into a toxic fixed exchange-rate system, with a shared single currency, run in the interests of Germany, held together by the threat of absolute destitution for those who challenge the prevailing order. The best thing that can be said of the weekend is the brutal honesty of those perpetrating this regime change.
We will soon be asking ourselves whether this new eurozone, in which the strong push around the weak, can be sustainable. Previously, the strongest argument against any forecasts of break-up has been the strong political commitment of all its members. If you ask Italians why they are in the eurozone, few have ever pointed to the economic benefits. They wanted to be part of the most ambitious project of European integration undertaken."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11735609/Greece-news-live-Crucified-Tsipras-capitulates-to-draconian-measures-after-17-hours-of-late-night-talks.html
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 10:49 am
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03371/110715-MATT-WEB_3371876a.jpg
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 12:02 pm
Quote:
The third and most troubling kind of damage that has been done to European integration is the deterioration of trust between the EU member states. References to trust were heard most loudly this weekend from the hawks among the euro zone creditor states – Germany, Finland, Slovakia and others – who justified their call for unprecedented limitations on Greek sovereignty with reference to Mr. Tsipras’s unreliability, and the danger of him reneging on an eventual agreement. But by disregarding the referendum result, insisting on reform measures that were widely seen as humiliating, categorically ruling out a reduction to Greece’s debt and openly flirting with the country’s expulsion from the euro zone, Germany and its allies did at least as much damage to mutual trust – and to the idea of European solidarity – as Mr. Tsipras with his ill-advised referendum. Even if a bailout deal is eventually implemented, this does not bode well for the future of the EU, whose complicated decision making system depends entirely on the member-states’ mutual goodwill and co-operation.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/even-if-deal-is-reached-with-greece-damage-to-european-integration-has-already-been-done/article25477511/

The Germans are killing Europe even as they claim to be trying to save it....
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 12:27 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The idea of a unified democratic Europe is still a powerful one, as the crowds waving EU flags in the streets of Kiev last year attested. But it’s going to be hard going forward for Brussels to demand its member governments respect the will of their voters when it’s extremely reluctant to apply those standards to itself.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/07/13/the_eu_s_democracy_problem_nbsp.html

And going forwards it is going to be increasingly difficult to feel good about being a European with as hostile as the EU is towards democracy. Back 20-40 years ago those who we arguing to build the EU and the EURO were arguing from a position of the moral high ground and the dream of the better life for all. Now those same arguments are backed by a record of hostility towards democracy and a record of incompetence and a rapidly expanding record of cruelty. These people fall all over themselves to provide assistance to the invading African Hordes, but they will not help out the Greeks, and both problems have been colossally mismanaged.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 01:33 pm
@CalamityJane,
this is what the coverage here is focussing on

CalamityJane wrote:

Why on earth did he initiate a referendum when he later on accepts more
austerity measures? Just to save face? Tsipras is a young and inexperienced politician who will bring his country to its breaking point.


Toronto has a very large Greek ex-pat community (about 90,000 Greek-Cdns per 2006 census). We live walking distance to Greektown. I have a lot of friends in the community and have performed in their major community festival.

The mood here is not in support of Tsipras. My earlier post about this being a loss/loss situation comes from much discussion with my Greek-Cdn friends. Lots of talk about how people back home needed to wise up years ago, and everyone is sick of decades of sending money to Greece. Lots of comments about how Greeks wouldn't be able to handle living here because they don't know how to follow rules. They suggest the problems between Greek/EU are a reflection of the problems they have with their own relatives.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 03:23 pm
@ehBeth,
They are probably ex-pats for a reason.
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 04:05 pm
@ehBeth,
Interesting Beth!
I have a feeling that there will be new elections soon in Greece as Tsipras won't get this new austerity program through parliament. Varoufakis was the first to bail and many will follow. How can you gamble without having a backup plan? Even before the referendum, Greece should have had a plan to present to the EU and another plan in how to proceed in a Grexit situation.

I really feel for the Greek people, they're they ones who'll suffer, not the politicians or the top 1 %.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 06:01 pm
@CalamityJane,
Quote:
Greece should have had a plan to present to the EU and another plan in how to proceed in a Grexit situation.

we dont know that they dont.

Quote:
I have a feeling that there will be new elections soon in Greece as Tsipras won't get this new austerity program through parliament

Perhaps in the next few days the greek people come to " **** it, leaving the Euro cant be much worse than this plan, and unlike this plan it might even be the trick that gets this debt problem solved". It sure looks like this government is bringing the people around to the necessary move of leaving the Euro. The only thing that argues against this read is that I am told that about 20 billion euro in damage to the greek banks has happened in the last weeks, which seems like something to be avoided if possible.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2015 06:14 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Hanging the critical issue of bank recapitalization on a highly uncertain program of asset disposals has left some observers skeptical of the plan.
“If it doesn’t happen, so how would the funding happen for the bank recapitalization, for the debt reduction?” Moritz Kraemer, a managing director for sovereign ratings at Standard & Poor’s, asked in a Bloomberg Television Interview. “What are the actual assets? For me it just sounds like a rabbit out of a hat.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-13/greek-bailout-rests-on-asset-sale-plan-that-s-already-failed?ref=yfp

Actually from what I can read it sounds like NO ONE believes that there are anything close to 50 billion Euro in Assets to be sold, and that even if there were only an idiot would sell them before the economy recovers and the assets regain their rightful value. THis is clearly more IMF/EU bullshit, to go on top of all of the other bullshit that they have been feeding us and the Greeks.

Quote:
Like the previous bailout programs, the aim is to put Greece’s debt on a downward trajectory as a proportion of its GDP. But the math looks strained: Greek debt avoids skyrocketing only because lenders say Greece will raise €50 billion from privatizing public assets, the proceeds of which would mostly go toward paying down debt.

Previous bailout plans also assumed large privatization revenues. Only a fraction have materialized. The problem was and remains that Greece doesn’t have assets that it can sell for such high prices in the foreseeable future, economists say.

In that case, tensions between the IMF and Germany over writing off Europe’s loans to Greece are likely to erupt again

http://www.wsj.com/articles/third-times-the-charm-little-optimism-over-new-greece-bailout-1436813931
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2015 12:03 pm
Quote:
But if what happened over the weekend doesn’t quite amount to a coup, it has nevertheless been a ruthless display of power politics on Germany’s part and a chilling reminder of the remorseless logic of a monetary union dominated by creditors and pre-Keynesian economics. In the words of Paul De Grauwe, a well-known Belgian economist who teaches at London School of Economics, a “template of future governance” of the eurozone was written over the weekend: “Submit to German rule or leave.” In the years and decades ahead, Germany may discover that many Europeans would prefer the second option.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/a-humiliating-deal-for-greece

The last few months have increased the chances that the way the Euro Project dies is the Germans leave. As things stand now the only way for Germany to keep things together is to keep handing out candy to the rest of Europe, and in return for this generosity all they will get is condemnation and all of the blame when things dont work out. The negatives were much diluted before the French turned up broke, when this project was being run by the French/German partnership. I think this German hate of Greece is in large part misdirected anger, and that the Greeks are scapegoats for the German anger that their Europe, the one that they set out to create with France, has them paying for everything. As almost all economists are pointing out the German demands of Greece have nothing to do with economics or logic, they are all emotional.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2015 06:19 pm
Quote:
"The German government destroyed seven decades of post-war diplomacy on a single weekend," news website Spiegel Online said.

"There is a fine line between saving and punishing Greece. This night the line has disappeared," tweeted Mathias Mueller von Blumencron of the conservative standard-bearer Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung as the details of the German-brokered austerity-for-aid deal emerged.

"Merkel managed to revive the image of the ugly, hard-hearted and stingy German that had just begun to fade," the centre-left daily Sueddeutsche Zeitung wrote.

"Every cent of aid to Greece that the Germans tried to save will have to
be spent two and three times over in the coming years to polish that image again."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/germans-lament-diplomatic-disaster-greece-talks-062206874.html

Damn Right!

When did these ******* Germans get too be so stupid? First dismantling the nuclear power industry, now this? Are all of those immigrants diluting the gene pool?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2015 07:44 pm
@hawkeye10,
Now that the IMF is now insisting that debt relief has to be part of any Greece plan that could possibly work the greeks would be morons to agree to Merkels ransom demands.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2015 11:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Why on earth should Greek MPs vote for a painful economic reform package which the IMF - the supposed global arbiter of these things - does not believe will put the country back on the path to prosperity?
The eurozone creditors, and Germany in particular, forced Alexis Tsipras - against his strong preference - to accept IMF participation in the next formal bailout package to be negotiated if Greek MPs pass the initial reform measures tonight.
They told him, in effect, he would be turfed out of the eurozone and into national ruin unless he took more of the IMF's money and fiscal bossiness.
Which also look tragically comic tonight - with the IMF saying that if it's all the same to Mrs Merkel, it would rather not touch Greece with a barge pole.
Or to be tediously literal, the IMF has made it clear that it does not wish to participate in any further Greek bailout, unless Germany and the rest drop their vehement opposition to big write-offs of Greek debt.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33531845

WOW, the Iron Lady just got bitch slapped.....
 

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