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Is Greece going to set off the long feared next wave of the Great Recession?

 
 
timur
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 12:39 pm
@georgeob1,
As articulate your comments might be and what verisimilitude they might have, they are not even close to demonstrate the reality of Greek reforms.

No country in Europe made so many reforms and sacrifices the Greeks did.

Yet, their situation today is much worse than it was when Europe imposed those reforms five or six years back.

They didn't work.

It's about time to let another kind of economists show different ways:

Quote:
Joseph Stiglitz, Thomas Piketty and Other World-Renowned Economists Demand End to Greek Austerity
The economists called their letter a “plea for economic sanity and humanity.”

Source


Quote:
Less than 10% of the money was used by the government for reforming its economy and safeguarding weaker members of society

Source

Quote:
The rise of anti-austerity parties in Greece and Spain is “good news for Europe”, the economist Thomas Piketty has said, adding that citizens are paying the price of “incredible” attempts to force southern European countries to pay off their debts too fast.

Source


Another society is slowly emerging in Europe but the tenants of the old ideology are still trying hard to keep the past order of the world.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 01:00 pm
@timur,
I'm not at all sure your assertions are accurate. Latvia went through much tougher eeconomic reforms to meet EU standards. Certainly Ireland did after their economic collapse from a real estate bubble and foolish (and possibly corrupt) decision to nationalize their bank debts (The Icelanders were wiser).They are now emerging from a long period of austerity and with renewed economic vigor.

A couple of pages back I pasted an Op ed by a number of prominent economists (many of them with Greek names) urging continued Greek economic reform. You may care to read that.

Greece has long had a weak economy plagued by a lack of economic competition, excess government regulation, the corruption that usually attends it and a very long term habit of excessive deficits and borrowing.

Your proposition that no country in Europe has made so many reforms and sacrifices as Greece is demonstrably false. They have hardly begun to make much needed reforms in the chronic overregulation, and corruption and excessive goverrnment spernding that has limited their economic performance for decades.

I'll readily agree that there has been substantial suffereing involved, but it is simply a fact that before the catastrophe of the Syriza govenment occurred, the Greek economy was beginning to grow following the reforms and the contraction that had occurred. The usual pattern is that this growth tends to accelerate during the recovery. Syriza interrupted all that.
timur
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 01:22 pm
@georgeob1,
So, you are showing an obvious right wing bias and persisting in trying to demonstrate the failure of liberal governments as if they were less able to govern a country.

You have been doing that for years and I'm not expecting you to change your stance an iota..
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 01:58 pm
@timur,
That's not true. The Swedes and Danes have been doing well in that area for a long time. However in many respects they do appear to be the exception to the rule.

Your words imply that "a right wing bias" is some kind of mark of evil or wrongheadedness. Is that what you believe? Are you that narrow-minded?

Just as with successive generations in families there are certain fairly predictable economic and social trajectories often followed by people and cultures. "Shirtsleeves toi shirtsleves in three generations" is a phrase that has variants in many countries. I believe the same goes for governments. Wealth is produced in one generation, political recime or situation that is dissipated in another.

Human behavior is exceedingly complex, and, while there are fairly well-known economic solutions to particular problems, there don't appear to be any systematic solutions that are reliably good over an extended period of time. Everything runs down with enough time.

I haven't acused you of any particular systematic bias and I haven't attempted to categorize you or assign a label to you .... nor am I inclined to do so. Why then do you do it? Is assigning me a label easier than thinking about what we are discussing.
timur
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 02:09 pm
@georgeob1,
I've been thinking and pondering about the matters at hand for years, yet you are accusing me of not doing so..

On the other hand, I read a lot about what people post on A2K.

I think I have a good grasp on what political side you belong to and, more than that, I can see why you profess such economic views.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 02:33 pm
@timur,
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/Greece_public_debt_1999-2010.svg/300px-Greece_public_debt_1999-2010.svg.png

Greece ability to pay debt has not gotten better. The Germans blame the Greeks for not doing enough reform which they say hurts competitiveness and prevents further help, the Greeks blame the Euro Masters for strangling their economy, in large part out of spite.

I dont see everyone ever getting on the same page on this.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 04:06 pm
@timur,
Then I have no objections.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 04:42 pm
@hawkeye10,
I think that enhancing Greece's ability to service existing and future debt was the essential point in the negotiations between them and theEU/IMF negotiators. Their main objection to the Greek proposals was the excessive government spending and taxation, and the elimination of previously agreed regulatory reforms in the new proposal --- all issues tied to expectations of future economic growth to achieve those core objectives.

The chart you presented indicates only the magnitude of Greek Debt compared to the EU average, not their ability to pay. The data indicates that Greek debt rose from 150% of the EU average before the 2007 crisis to 184% afterwards. Seeing the same picture in terms of the ratio of debt to GDP would be more useful.

News reports indicate that Greece has just defaulted in today's payment due the IMF. That means no more bond sales on international credit markets. The Greek people will soon find out if the new reality brought to them by PM Tsipras & co. is any better than the one they had before they voted him in.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 06:48 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
News reports indicate that Greece has just defaulted in today's payment

I have not had time to look at the news, but that is highly unlikely. The IMF was expected to not issue a default declaration because the plan is to negotiate after the 5th, pretty much regardless of which way it goes.

Quote:
not their ability to pay.

Many top economists saying that the debt would need to be stretched to 75 years to make this reasonable is many top economists telling me that this debt is not manageable. I also noticed that part of the plan is for who ever is loaning the money to take a lose by allowing unreasonably low rates. So, even according to these economists even paying in 46 years requires a huge subsidy. No, you lose this argument, this debt will not and can not be paid in full. This is getting to be a major global problem by the way, and no one has a solution other than the obvious one of waiting for the global economic system to crash and be replaced. It does not seem to me that anyone is even trying anymore.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 07:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
News reports indicate that Greece has just defaulted in today's payment

I have not had time to look at the news, but that is highly unlikely.


it was reported several hours ago

http://www.wsj.com/articles/some-greek-banks-to-open-for-pensioners-1435653433
Quote:
Greece Defaults on IMF Loan Despite New Push for Bailout Aid
European finance chiefs shut down Athens’s last-minute request for emergency financial aid


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11709473/Greece-defaults-on-the-International-Monetary-Fund-after-launching-11th-hour-attempt-to-agree-new-rescue-deal.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/european-leaders-seek-last-ditch-offer-to-bring-greece-from-brink-of-default/2015/06/30/960aded8-1ea2-11e5-a135-935065bc30d0_story.html
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 07:13 pm
and some economists think it's a good thing

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/29/us-greek-default_n_7690980.html

Quote:
NEW YORK -- The United States may benefit if Greece defaults when its latest loan payment is due on Tuesday, as this may set the stage for a permanent solution to the country’s debt crisis, some economists believe.

The White House on Monday signaled its support for European creditors, who demanded that Greece enact stricter austerity measures if it wants access to another tranche of its bailout fund. Without it, Greece cannot pay back the $1.73 billion owed on Tuesday to the International Monetary Fund. Greece now awaits a July 5 referendum on the new bailout measures.

But although a Greek default carries some near-term risks for the U.S., such a move may actually help Greece broker a deal that with time would lift its depressed economy.


Quote:
“If they vote yes, it just postpones the day of reckoning,” Mark Weisbrot, co-director of the nonprofit Center for Economic and Policy Research, told HuffPost. “The debt is unsustainable and the austerity is making the debt burden worse by pushing the Greek economy back into recession.”

If Greece acquiesced to European demands, prompting creditors to release funds to pay back the debt due on Tuesday, it would serve as little more than a Band-Aid. European instability would continue, Weisbrot said.

“The instability of the eurozone as it fails to resolves this and the inability of Greece to grow its way out of the problem -- all of those things will affect us,” he said.

His comments echoed sentiments shared by other left-leaning economists, such as Nobel laureates Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 07:17 pm
@ehBeth,
I just looked at the IMF press release, as expected they announced that Greece is in Arrears, they dont say default, which is a huge difference.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 07:20 pm
@ehBeth,
Also many have pointed out that it is not likely that the situation can get much worse. The economy of greece is already more depressed than Argentina was after they defaulted, the banks are already toast, what else is left to lose?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 07:25 pm
@hawkeye10,
There was no win in this for Greece, just a choice of ways to lose.

They've seriously got to smarten their collective asses up.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 07:44 pm
@ehBeth,
there is a super damning overview of the EU demands here, It becomes clear that the Merkel lead demands are political and retaliatory, not sound economics.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/30/greek-debt-troika-analysis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 07:53 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

There was no win in this for Greece, just a choice of ways to lose.

They've seriously got to smarten their collective asses up.


Laughing Laughing Every now and then Beth you hit a bull's eye !
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 07:56 pm
@georgeob1,
the choices are

1) stupid

2) physically ;azy (dont want to work)

3) mentally lazy (dont care)

or some combination. Unlike Beth I am not ready to go with (1)
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 07:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
Did you read that before you commented on it?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 08:09 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Did you read that before you commented on it?


Yes, and it supports my argument, which is made by quite a few others, that five years into a failed plan Greece has reason to question both competence and motivation of those running the plan.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Jun, 2015 11:04 pm
Quote:
In my more than 30 years writing about politics and economics, I have never before witnessed such an episode of sustained, self-righteous, ruinous and dissembling incompetence -- and I'm not talking about Alexis Tsipras and Syriza. As the damage mounts, the effort to rewrite the history of the European Union's abject failure over Greece is already underway. Pending a fuller postmortem, a little clarity on the immediate issues is in order.

On Monday, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said at a news conference that he'd been betrayed by the Greek government.

The creditor institutions, he said, had shown flexibility and sought compromise. Their most recent offer involved no wage cuts, he emphasized, and no pension cuts; it was a package that created "more social fairness." Tsipras had misled Greeks about what the creditors were asking. The talks were getting somewhere. Agreement on this package could have been reached "easily" if Tsipras hadn't collapsed the process early Saturday by calling a referendum.

What an outrageous passel of distortion. Since these talks began five months ago, both sides have budged, but Tsipras has given vastly more ground than the creditors. In particular, he was ready to accede to more fiscal austerity -- a huge climbdown on his part. True, the last offer requires a slightly milder profile of primary budget surpluses than the creditors initially demanded; nonetheless, it still calls for severely (and irrationally) tight fiscal policy.

In contrast, the creditors have refused to climb down on the question of including debt relief in the current talks, absurdly insisting that this is an issue for later. On Tuesday, Tsipras made his most desperate attempt yet to bring the issue forward.

Far from expressing any desire to compromise, dominant voices among the creditors -- notably German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble, who often seemed to be calling the shots -- have maintained throughout that there is nothing to discuss. The program already in place had to be completed, and that was that.

Yes, the program had failed. No, it wouldn't achieve debt sustainability. Absolutely, it was pointlessly grinding down Greek living standards even further. What did that have to do with it?

Juncker says the last offer made no demand for wage cuts. Really? The offer says the "wage grid" should be modernized, including "decompressing the [public sector] wage distribution." On the face of it, decompressing involves cuts. If the creditors were calling for public-sector wages to be decompressed upward perhaps they should have made this clear. Regardless, the increases in value-added taxes demanded by the creditors mean lower real wages, public and private alike. As for no pension cuts, the creditors called for phasing out new early-retirement penalties and the so-called social solidarity payment for the poorest pensioners. Those are cuts.

The creditors called for a lot else, too. Remember that the Greek economy is on its knees. Living standards have collapsed and the unemployment rate is 25 percent. Now read the offer document, and see if you think the advance in "social fairness" that Juncker stressed at his news conference shines through.

But I haven’t mentioned the biggest distortion of all. Noticing for the first time that Greece has EU citizens within its borders, Juncker addressed them directly on the subject of the July 5 referendum. Greeks will be asked whether they accept the offer presented by the creditors -- an offer, by the way, that the creditors say no longer stands. "No [to the offer that no longer exists] would mean that Greece is saying no to Europe," Juncker explained. President Francois Hollande of France clarified: The vote would determine "whether the Greeks want to stay in the euro zone."

Nonsense. There's no doubt that Greeks want to stay in the euro system -- though I find it increasingly difficult to see why. If Greece leaves the system, it won't be because Greeks decide to leave; it will be because Europe decides to kick them out.

This isn't just semantics. There's no reason, in law or logic, why a Greek default necessitates an exit from the euro. The European Central Bank pulls this trigger by choosing -- choosing, please note -- to withhold its services as lender of last resort to the Greek banking system. That is what it did this week. That is what shut the banks and, in short order, will force the Greek authorities to start issuing a parallel currency in the form of IOUs.

A truly independent ECB, willing to do whatever it takes to defend the euro system, could have announced that it would keep supplying Greek banks with liquidity. If the Greek banks are deemed in due course to be insolvent (which hasn’t happened yet), that doesn't have to trigger an exit, either. Europe has the wherewithal and a bank-rescue mechanism that would allow the banks to be taken over and recapitalized. These options are foreclosed because the supposedly apolitical ECB has let Europe's finance ministers use it as a hammer to extract fiscal concessions from Greece.

Nobody ever imagined that a government default in Europe would dictate ejection from the euro zone. The very possibility would have been correctly recognized as a fatal defect in the design of the system.

If the Greeks vote no, a Greek exit is a possible and even likely consequence. But if it happens, the reason won't be that Greece chose to go. The reason will be that the European Union and its politicized central bank chose to inflict exit as punishment.


Clive Crook is a Bloomberg View columnist and a member of the Bloomberg View editorial board. A former chief Washington commentator of the Financial Times, he previously worked at the Economist and as a senior editor at the Atlantic. Crook was born in Yorkshire, and educated at Bolton School; Magdalen College, Oxford (where he was a foundation scholar); and the London School of Economics. After leaving university, he was an official in H.M. Treasury and the Government Economic Service. Crook worked for 20 years at the Economist, variously serving as economics correspondent, Washington correspondent, economics editor and deputy editor.

Ya, this is going to suck. It is beginning to look like the EU Masters are out to punish Greece for the increasingly probable failure of the EU project, A failure that if it happens will be cause by not setting it up very well, and by gross incompetence along the way.
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