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Is Greece going to set off the long feared next wave of the Great Recession?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 05:46 pm
@spendius,
spendi, You are really stupid; I never use the world "bubble" in any of my writings about economics. None.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 06:36 pm
@hawkeye10,
I read the Krugman piece, and he does indeed make a good argument. He notes that Greece is indeed headed for default because of the high levels of its debt, relative to GDP, and the apparent inability of its government to deal with it. However he points out that, taken as a whole, the EU is not at these dangerously high levels of public debt relative to GDP (even though some members notably Greece are) , and therefore the ECB should buy the bonds of stressed members (Greece, Italy, Spain) in order to prevent a run on their debt.

I wonder how he rationalizes his repeated proposals for a major increase in short term borrowing and spending in this country, given that (states included) our public debt is now over 100% of GDP (Greece is at about 140%), and well into the danger zone.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 07:27 pm
@georgeob1,
Our publically held debt is not over 100% of GDP.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np
09/09/2011 10,067,728,635,010.67
That works out to about 65% of GDP
State and local debt is only about 10% of GDP.

It all depends on whether you want to consider the money the government owes itself to be "public debt."
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 08:11 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

It all depends on whether you want to consider the money the government owes itself to be "public debt."

And I do consider it that because it represents entitlement obligations that must be paid just like everything else.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Sep, 2011 09:54 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I wonder how he rationalizes his repeated proposals for a major increase in short term borrowing and spending in this country, given that (states included) our public debt is now over 100% of GDP (Greece is at about 140%), and well into the danger zone.

Greece's debt has now reached 195% of GDP. Even the Republic of Congo is deemed to be doing better economically - maybe Krugman moved there?
http://av.r.ftdata.co.uk/files/2011/09/Exotix_Ita_Leb.png
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Sep, 2011 10:31 am
@High Seas,
Sorry forgot to add graph was dtd Sep. 16th. Same graph as it was last March shown below. Walter, how do you say "This sucker could go down" in German?
http://av.r.ftdata.co.uk/files/2011/03/Frontier_periphery.png
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Sep, 2011 11:00 am
@High Seas,
But the meetings with EU financial ministers and bankers drag on and on. However, increasingly it appears to be a sort of bedside charade for a dying patient.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Sep, 2011 11:13 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
... how do you say "This sucker could go down" in German?


No idea, sorry.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Sep, 2011 05:21 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Eet eez kaput.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2011 05:49 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Another admirer of your Finance Minister! Excerpt from today's WSJ article "Last Chance to Save the Euro", by Prof. Cochrane (U of Chicago):
Quote:
...The ECB involvement has only just begun. Last weekend's bright idea is to "leverage" the €440 billion bailout fund by borrowing from the ECB, and using the fund to insure debt rather than to buy it. In this way the fund could "support" trillions of euros of debt. But risk can only be transferred; it does not evaporate. And the risk ends up at the ECB and, ultimately, with taxpayers.

This sort of scheme should sound familiar from the financial crisis. Take a fund designed to buy bonds, and goose its credit exposure by leveraging and writing credit default swaps (bond insurance) instead. This move just explodes the ECB's already large lending against rotten collateral.

German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schauble saw through the scheme quickly, calling it a "stupid idea" that would "endanger the AAA sovereign debt rating" of other member states. I think he misspoke a bit. The goal is stupid, but it takes clever financial engineering to turn a €440 billion fund into several trillions of credit exposure......

roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2011 05:52 pm
@High Seas,
Insuring debt sounds way cool. Kind of like a national credit default swap - if only the counter parties could respond to a default.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2011 03:20 pm
@roger,
You got it - exactly. From yesterday's Financial Times:
Quote:
.....contemplating the means of privately levering the EFSF is a great exercise, because it brings home more than ever the correlated default risks between the guarantor pool and the asset portfolio of the bailout fund. Or by way of example, imagine investing in a CDO that had insurance on the tranches from AIG where the underlying assets were AIG stock.

And perhaps also assume no one was there to bailout AIG either.....
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2011 05:14 pm
@High Seas,
It's the extortionate demands of women wot done it HS and no amount of sophistry can disguise the fact.

Put your snow machine into the faces of the uxoriate. Flounce on the Flouncing forum please.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2011 05:24 pm
@spendius,
Plastered again, eh, Spendius? Perhaps you should return to your pub and try your luck with the local ladies once more? If you absolutely must stay home pondering the mysteries of the universe, here's an amazing new discovery: Fermi Bubbles Are Burps from a Star-Eating Black Hole
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/27211/?p1=blogs
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2011 06:23 pm
@High Seas,
Good one !! Laughing Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 03:07 am
News from Greece is becoming increasingly apocalyptic

Quote:
I cannot emphasise enough the role of policing and the media in this.


The streets of Athens on Sunday night were filled by protesters, tear gas and fires
On the ground, Sunday's demonstration felt massive. It was never allowed to assemble in one place but even the PAME contingent, where I stood on Stadiou Street, looked maybe 50-70,000 strong.

The organisers claimed 250,000 had tried to assemble. The police claimed 4,500. The media reported 15,000. Both of the latter figures were a joke.

What was no joke were the clashes between police and the hardline protesters - drawn from the anarchist black bloc, the fringes of the far left and in increasing numbers from right-wing, football-supporting groups on the fringes of LAOS and the fascist group Chrissi Avgi. Time and again, on the grounds of confronting the rioters, police made incursions into large masses of peaceful protesters.

This is hardly spoken of by Greek ministers and the EU doesn't seem to want to comment on it. But I can tell you from repeated experience, it feels like a process of collective punishment of a peaceful majority.

I think this week caught Greece on the proverbial brink of something. The anger could easily solidify into anti-German sentiment, but with the conservatives and Orthodox right implicated in the first bailout, anger can more easily flow to the left.

It may be of course that I am overestimating the dangers. But here is another problem of perception: in the three hours I spent at or close to the front of the rioting on Sunday night, I did not see a single other television crew. Ours was repeatedly harassed, verbally and physically, most harshly by a small group of right wingers who accused us of being German.

At the start of the demo I saw one other (foreign) TV crew and that was it. Parts of the Greek broadcast media have long since given up telling the story of the streets; for most of them it is too dangerous, such is the popular hostility to a media many believe is in the pocket of a corrupt political class.

That is sad, but here's the wider problem this creates. If you are Schauble, Rehn, Merkel, Lagarde, you are increasingly flying blind in this crisis. The Greek papers, heavily politically aligned, can only partially reflect what is happening. The Greek politicians you talk to spend their nights shuttered behind grilles in anonymous offices - they cannot appear in public, they cannot get a feel of the streets.

The Greek politicians in power cannot deliver the country they run to an austerity package they do not believe in. And after the election, power is likely to be even more fragmented.

Just as the combined might of the IMF and the Greek government is pulling economic levers that do not work, the more insidious problem is that they are pulling political strings that are broken.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17067104
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 03:40 pm
@hawkeye10,
I believe that, taken together, the core issues Greece faces don't permit any solutions without grave political and economic risks. The austerity being imposed by their lenders risks serious short term recession in an already depresed economy. Continued borrowing (if it was even possible) risks evading the structural reforms sorely needed to restore economic productivity. The Greek (and southern & central European) demographic deficit and associated aging population adds to future government spending requirements, and makes short term economic recovery more difficult - adding significantly to both problems.

In short Greece is in a very bad corner with no pleasant exits available, short of a generous benefactor willing to sustain lifestyles well beyond their present means. It is fairly clear now that there is no such benefactor.

The United States also faces these contradictory problems, though happily to lesser degrees. We too appear to be unwilling to face the constraints that high levels of debt and current deficits put on our ability to stimulate economic activity, in the short term through government spending, and on the equally urgent necessity we face of seriously dealing with long-term entitlement spending levels in a way that will not further degrade economic growth. Unhappily our political leaders are merely talking at each other, while the Administration in power continues emphasizing short-term economic stimulation and sustained economic rewards for their constituents , without any serious effort to curtail long-term deficits. This is very likely a close approximation of the formula the Greeks used to get to where they are now.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 03:52 pm
@georgeob1,
ECONOMIC PRODUCTIVITY !!! ???.

In Greece? Are you kidding George?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 04:05 pm
@spendius,
It appears that the Greek people will now, willingly or not, have to deal with the tradeoffs involved.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 04:36 pm
@georgeob1,
They will be unwilling participants in the austerity program demanded by Germany and France, but that still doesn't answer the question of how much more pain will be needed to cure their problems. They are asking bond holders to take a huge loss, but that will have endless and disastrous results in many of the Euro countries whose own bond holdings are at risk.
 

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