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WikiLeaks video "Collateral Murder" depicts US military killing civilians in Baghdad

 
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 03:16 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
This does not excuse violating the rules of engagement, those who did should have been punished as I already said.


I'm only selecting one sentence out of your paragraph, but I want to stress that the guys in these helicopters did not violate the rules of engagement.

A tragic case of collateral damage, certainly, but this wasn't a war crime.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 03:16 pm
@Butrflynet,
Butrflynet wrote:
as the founder of WikiLeads said on Ratigan's show, aerial combat has become nothing but a glorified video game and these guys were trying to get a higher score so they could brag about it.


The founder of Wikileaks seems quite dishonest. Those guys were trying to kill insurgents before they killed American soldiers.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 03:55 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
In any case, let's get back to the focus of this thread:

Quote:
WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff. Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded. For further information please visit the special project website www.collateralmurder.com.


This is the sort of material we are normally not allowed to see. Because of its classification by the US military.

Congratulations to Wikileaks for making this video available to the public. And congratulations to those who supplied Wikileaks with the video material.

This is the sort of material we need to see, to properly understand what actually happens in situations like the Iraq invasion.


I'm actually a little outraged by the leak. Letting people view military tactics lets the enemy learn how better to kill our soldiers.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 03:55 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
I saw the word, but nearly every time such atrocities come out they get brushed off as not being "surprising". I don't think this should be surprising, it should be disgusting and often it's downplayed for lacking an element of surprise.


Collateral damage is tragic, but it is hardly an atrocity.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 03:58 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
I have now had the opportunity to view the video and this probably will not come as a surprise to many of you but I fail to see any reason to feel outrage. Certainly not in the sense that the posters of the video are attempting to invoke.


You see it correctly. Certainly this is a tragic case of collateral damage.

But it is not a crime by any means.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 03:59 pm
@oralloy,
Well, you guys don't actually think of Iraqis as people, so how could it be a crime?

What a couple of prize assholes ya'll are

Cycloptichorn
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:00 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
But not the least of my concerns is the fact that Iraqi civilians were killed in this way & there was a military cover-up of what had occurred. And that it took an organization like WikiLeaks to finally publish this information, two years later.


What cover up?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  4  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:01 pm
@oralloy,
illegitimate war is a war crime.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:05 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
What has this video revealed that proves a cover-up?

That the American soldiers murdered these civilians in cold blood,


The video does not show anyone being murdered in cold blood. All it shows is a tragic case of collateral damage.



Thomas wrote:
deliberately killed children,


No children were killed, and no one knew the children were even there until after the incident.



Thomas wrote:
and made fun of their victims after the fact.


No one made fun of the victims.



Thomas wrote:
When you look at the video, you see that the soldier's story -- that these civilians were about to attack something -- was grotesquely at odds with reality, as the video camera depicted it from their perspective.


Actually the video shows that it did indeed look like they were about to fire a bazooka at American soldiers on the ground before the helicopters opened fire.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:05 pm
@oralloy,
Along comes Finn in short pants.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:06 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You guys really have to give it up to Finn; most Conservatives are a little too ashamed of themselves to come right out and state that they don't give a **** about human casualties in wars of convenience we started. But he's up that he couldn't care less that people get murdered. Not even a blip on his radar.

Cycloptichorn


Collateral damage is hardly murder.
Thomas
 
  4  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:09 pm
@oralloy,
Since we disagree about what the video shows, I see no way to resolve our disagreement. Let's just invite everyone to watch it for themselves, and to draw their own conclusions.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:09 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
And according to the NYT article I posted yesterday, a military spokesperson is still claiming that this unprovoked attack was legitimate & above board. (My interpretation of the response from memory, not the exact words used, but my understanding of the gist of the statement. I can quote directly from the article, if you like.)


Collateral damage is a tragedy, but the attack was indeed entirely legitimate and above board.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:11 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
You guys really have to give it up to Finn; most Conservatives are a little too ashamed of themselves to come right out and state that they don't give a **** about human casualties in wars of convenience we started. But he's up that he couldn't care less that people get murdered. Not even a blip on his radar.

Cycloptichorn


Collateral damage is hardly murder.


People are not collateral.

Though, once again, refreshingly honest of you to let your inner monster shine so openly. Most would be embarrassed to admit that they view other races as Things instead of people.

Cycloptichorn
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:12 pm
@oralloy,
Oralloy's signature line:

America needs to start killing Italy's honors students -- one for every day that Amanda Knox spends in prison

-----------------------------------

Might this be anywhere close to an indictable offence?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:12 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Well, you guys don't actually think of Iraqis as people, so how could it be a crime?

What a couple of prize assholes ya'll are

Cycloptichorn


I don't recall saying Iraqis are not people.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:14 pm
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:
illegitimate war is a war crime.


True.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:17 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Well, you guys don't actually think of Iraqis as people, so how could it be a crime?

What a couple of prize assholes ya'll are

Cycloptichorn


I don't recall saying Iraqis are not people.


Every time you refer to them as 'collateral damages,' that's exactly what you are doing. It is a phrase specifically designed to minimize the importance of killing people.

Besides, it's inaccurate. Collateral damage refers to targets which are damaged outside of the intended target of the attacker; in this case, the intended targets WERE successfully hit. They just were the wrong targets.

Cycloptichorn
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:19 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
Since we disagree about what the video shows, I see no way to resolve our disagreement. Let's just invite everyone to watch it for themselves, and to draw their own conclusions.


People should watch the long (39 minutes) video, not the short (17 minutes) one. The short one is something of a hatchet job.

People should also learn about the circumstances that resulted in the helicopters being in that area looking for people with weapons in the first place (American soldiers on the ground had called in air support because they were taking small arms fire from that area).
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:20 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You guys really have to give it up to Finn; most Conservatives are a little too ashamed of themselves to come right out and state that they don't give a **** about human casualties in wars of convenience we started. But he's up that he couldn't care less that people get murdered. Not even a blip on his radar.

Cycloptichorn


Collateral damage is hardly murder.


People are not collateral.

Though, once again, refreshingly honest of you to let your inner monster shine so openly. Most would be embarrassed to admit that they view other races as Things instead of people.


You are lying about my views.
 

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