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WikiLeaks video "Collateral Murder" depicts US military killing civilians in Baghdad

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 07:35 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
I guess I'm expressing a great deal less reluctance then.

That's fine.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 07:35 am
so sorry I posted here, I will attempt to refrain from such issues in the future. I actually thought my truthful observations might be helpful in adding to understanding.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 07:48 am
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:
While I think there are many reasons to understand the actions of these soldiers, and I am very reluctant to condemn them, I also think there is no reason to hold these kids as any less responsible than German soldiers were held at Nuremberg.

But ordinary German soldiers weren't held responsible at Nuremberg. Only the High Command was. Which kind of affirms Dyslexia's point.

dlowan wrote:
All manner of outrages occur in war, and I truly wonder to what extent the American kids in the video truly realise that they are not playing goddam video games, I think we still need to draw some lines. This looks a hell of a lot like one of them.

Indeed we need to, and it does.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 07:54 am
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:
I actually thought my truthful observations might be helpful in adding to understanding.

... and I think everyone appreciates that. Some people just disagree about the extent to which understanding the behavior implies excusing it.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 08:28 am
@Thomas,
There was another aspect to dyslexia's post. The behavior is not being excused, but the ultimate responsibility for the behavior of soldiers is directed elsewhere. Soldiers are trained to kill. The decisions to send soldiers to fight on foreign soil is made by others.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 08:35 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
There was another aspect to dyslexia's post. The behavior is not being excused, but the ultimate responsibility for the behavior of soldiers is directed elsewhere.

I suspect that the military hierarchy agrees with this, which is why these incidents get swept under the rug. The commanders don't want to be punished for the actions of their subordinates.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 08:36 am
@Thomas,
My understanding was that orders to do something immoral were not considered to excuse the carrying out of those orders.

In this case the soldiers were almost begging to be allowed to kill people attempting to rescue wounded.




0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 08:37 am
@dyslexia,
What are you actually wanting people to say, Dys?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 09:02 am
@Thomas,
I would never excuse this atrocious behavior nor have I excused my own behavior in war. That does not mean I don't have some understanding of it. as someone else once said "It must make sense, it has to make sense whether I understand it or not because if it doesn't make sense I can't live with myself"
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 09:17 am
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:

I would never excuse this atrocious behavior nor have I excused my own behavior in war. That does not mean I don't have some understanding of it. as someone else once said "It must make sense, it has to make sense whether I understand it or not because if it doesn't make sense I can't live with myself"



It's interesting to consider the extent to which understanding should lead to excusing. I tend to find the more I understand the more i WANT to excuse.

So..in your opinion, what, if anything, should happen as a result of what happened in the video?

We know what DID happen...it was lied about, which I guess is SOP.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 09:38 am
@dlowan,
more light, more light.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 10:36 am
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:
It's interesting to consider the extent to which understanding should lead to excusing. I tend to find the more I understand the more i WANT to excuse.

I tend to find the same thing. It's probably not helpful to think about these things in terms of blame. But since it's so easy it to lose your way under permanent and severe stress, it's crucial to have outside people telling you you've screwed up.

dlowan wrote:
So..in your opinion, what, if anything, should happen as a result of what happened in the video?

Give the soldiers their appropriate discipline. Depending on the broader context, this may or may not be as mild as a slap on the wrist. But either way, disclose what they were doing -- and what you were doing about it.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 10:52 am
Goddamn video game playing American kids. . .
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 10:54 am
We're joking about the video games right? Also, why are we assuming these are young (relative term here) soldiers?

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 01:35 pm
Some aren't going to like this, but there's been way way way too much allowance given for American soldiers and what they do in combat. What they often do in combat is ordered, intimated, suggested by their senior officers.

As Dys said, "more light more light."

Well, there's little to no light. What light is shed tells those that follow in their steps that war criminals/murderers on the scale of a William Calley go unpunished, are pardoned, are allowed to take part in normal everyday American society.

When there's no accountability how can it lead anywhere else?

Quote:
Many others were outraged not at Calley's guilty verdict, but that he was the only one within the chain of command who was convicted. At the Winter Soldier Investigation in Detroit organized by Vietnam Veterans Against the War January 31-February 2, 1971, veterans including 1st Lt. William Crandell of the 199th Light Infantry Brigade, Americal Division expressed their outrage:[7]

"We intend to tell who it was that gave us those orders; that created that policy; that set that standard of war bordering on full and final genocide. We intend to demonstrate that My Lai was no unusual occurrence, other than, perhaps, the number of victims killed all in one place, all at one time, all by one platoon of us. We intend to show that the policies of Americal Division which inevitably resulted in My Lai were the policies of other Army and Marine Divisions as well. We intend to show that war crimes in Vietnam did not start in March 1968, or in the village of Son My or with one Lt. William Calley. We intend to indict those really responsible for My Lai, for Vietnam, for attempted genocide."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 02:13 pm
Quote:
William Calley apologizes for My Lai massacre

August 2009


History is only insulting to those who live off of myths. -- Dagmaraka

0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 02:55 pm
I believe a person in uniform undergoes a mental makeover, to an extent. I was much more jingoistic in the service than after I got out. I felt I should volunteer for Nam while a sailor. Thought at the end of my hitch I should enlist in the Army. First I would take a short vacation. It did not take long as a civilian to become a war protester.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 03:06 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
Quote:
WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff. Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded. For further information please visit the special project website www.collateralmurder.com.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0[/youtube]

Full video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sxRfU-ik


I wouldn't think a 30MM machinegun would count as a "cannon".

And the video reveals too much of our soldiers' operational tactics. Whoever leaked it needs to be prosecuted for treason.

And the attack was hardly unprovoked. They believed those guys were about to launch a bazooka at American soldiers on the ground.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 03:09 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
Around 8 minutes into that video, hearing those soliders beg to engage the wounded (clearly itching to kill them) and those tending to the wounded is simply disgusting. Seeing them do it, just blow them away, is chilling.


They were not trying to kill them for "tending to the wounded". They fired on the van because they thought it was helping an insurgent escape and gathering up weapons before US ground forces arrived on the scene.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 03:13 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
A lot of folks in the military make me sick, listen to those soldiers saying "their fault for bringing their kids to battle" when they are feverishly imagining weapons and indiscriminately killing people who pose no threat to them. They were begging to shoot unarmed people, these folk disgust me and that they get away with it (or get a tiny slap on the wrist) just about every time is depressing.


Er, it is generally a bad idea to drive a van full of kids into a gun fight.....
0 Replies
 
 

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