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WikiLeaks video "Collateral Murder" depicts US military killing civilians in Baghdad

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 08:47 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn, you asked for the reasons for our outrage & disgust ...

I think I've given a few already, in earlier posts.

But not the least of my concerns is the fact that Iraqi civilians were killed in this way & there was a military cover-up of what had occurred. And that it took an organization like WikiLeaks to finally publish this information, two years later.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 10:05 pm
@hawkeye10,
You are kidding right? This is the land of Saddam, his death squads, meat grinder wars with Iran,

All the while being a top notch friend of the USA. Do you remember complaints about the butchery then. Of course not. Such a notion is ludicrous. America will never betray its own dictators, ... until it betrays its own dictators.

Hell, they even assisted Saddam in using poison gas on Iranian troops.



Wars with America,

Only when Saddam would no longer kowtow to the US.


Years of not enough food or medicine unless you were favored by the regime

Caused by an illegal and immoral embargo that killed half a million Iraqi children. Guess who established and kept the embargo in place.


and for awhile various bands of militants roaming the country who killed civilians with abandon.

Now replaced by roaming bands of illegal invaders that have perpetrated the biggest genocide of the 21st century.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 10:08 pm
@DrewDad,
Hear hear, DD.

Is Finn really that shallow, that transparent?

Do bears **** in the woods.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 05:03 pm
@msolga,
What do you believe that they covered up?

That Iraqi citizens were killed?

That Iraqi children were wounded?

That Reuter employees were killed?

What has this video revealed that proves a cover-up?

Thomas
 
  8  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 05:08 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
What has this video revealed that proves a cover-up?

That the American soldiers murdered these civilians in cold blood, deliberately killed children, and made fun of their victims after the fact. When you look at the video, you see that the soldier's story -- that these civilians were about to attack something -- was grotesquely at odds with reality, as the video camera depicted it from their perspective.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 05:14 pm
@dlowan,
Thank you dlowan. Your expectation suggests that I have remained intellectually consistent as is my goal.

Now, of course I know that you intended the comment as an insult, but since I disagree not only with virtually every position you take, I have very little respect for the way in which you process information (ie - think) the sting of it went missing.

But let me return what I took as a compliment --- I expected almost the exact wording of your reply. You too are consistent!
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 05:28 pm
@Thomas,
And yet Thomas I have not completely given up expecting something more from you than drive-by quips and expressions of exhausted patience.

You felt the need to school msolga on the exceptional nature of the slain journalists.

I'm not sure how anyone could have read your comment without thinking you were making the case that the deaths of journalists were more significant than the deaths of "regular" Iraqis.

I might be able to see your point if it was predicated on the belief that the US soldiers knew there were journalists in the crowd of gunmen and deliberately targeted them, but then this would be a totally unsubstantiated premise, and so I'm wondering where you're coming from.

But perhaps you would prefer to simply quip, sigh or ignore.
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 05:38 pm
You guys really have to give it up to Finn; most Conservatives are a little too ashamed of themselves to come right out and state that they don't give a **** about human casualties in wars of convenience we started. But he's up that he couldn't care less that people get murdered. Not even a blip on his radar.

Cycloptichorn
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 05:41 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
What do you believe that they covered up?

That Iraqi citizens were killed?

That Iraqi children were wounded?

That Reuter employees were killed?

What has this video revealed that proves a cover-up?


Quote:
WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff. Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded. For further information please visit the special project website www.collateralmurder.com.


And according to the NYT article I posted yesterday, a military spokesperson is still claiming that this unprovoked attack was legitimate & above board. (My interpretation of the response from memory, not the exact words used, but my understanding of the gist of the statement. I can quote directly from the article, if you like.)
Thomas
 
  5  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 06:31 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
And yet Thomas I have not completely given up expecting something more from you than drive-by quips and expressions of exhausted patience.

That's very nice of you, but entirely your choice. Please feel free to give up whenever you want to.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
You felt the need to school msolga on the exceptional nature of the slain journalists.

Thanks for reading my mind and telling me what I felt. But you read wrongly; I didn't "school" msolga on anything, I just expanded on her comment about what the Pentagon is brushing aside. And judging by her response to me, she understood me just fine.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
But perhaps you would prefer to simply quip, sigh or ignore.

I know! To choose among the many ways I might react to your innuendo is such an embarrassment of riches!
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 10:32 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
But he's up that he couldn't care less that people get murdered. Not even a blip on his radar.


Is this a recent discovery, Cy?
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Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 10:38 pm
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:
I don't feel blame for those that did this, I blame the willingness of governments to engage in war sans regard for the consequences.


While I recognize that desensitization is a fundamental part of warfare I think everyone is responsible for their own actions and that some of these individuals demonstrated a desire to kill whether or not they were threatened (e.g. saying things like "all you have to do is pick up a weapon" as they watch a writhing wounded journalist they want permission to kill).

That this is the predictable consequence of war doesn't excuse their behavior to me.
Diest TKO
 
  3  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 10:45 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
e.g. saying things like "all you have to do is pick up a weapon" as they watch a writhing wounded journalist they want permission to kill


I can't shake that sentence out of my head. I think that even if I sincerely thought that the person was an enemy, my wish would be the opposite. The idea of "Don't be stupid buddy, don't go for a gun." I cannot imagine myself so eager to kill a person.

It's odd. When I watch this video, I find myself hoping that somehow it will end differently. I keep hoping they'll survive; that something will change.

The same ending every time.
K
O
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 10:51 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I don't think Dyslexia was excusing their behavior. I think he was merely expressing a reluctance to judge.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 10:53 pm
@Thomas,
I guess I'm expressing a great deal less reluctance then.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 10:55 pm
Nobody is forcing use to pick one or the other. I think the situation is fucked up enough that there is plenty of blame for both.

T
K
O
dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 12:41 am
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:

Nobody is forcing use to pick one or the other. I think the situation is fucked up enough that there is plenty of blame for both.

T
K
O


While I think there are many reasons to understand the actions of these soldiers, and I am very reluctant to condemn them, I also think there is no reason to hold these kids as any less responsible than German soldiers were held at Nuremberg.


All manner of outrages occur in war, and I truly wonder to what extent the American kids in the video truly realise that they are not playing goddam video games, I think we still need to draw some lines. This looks a hell of a lot like one of them.

dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 12:44 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

I don't think Dyslexia was excusing their behavior. I think he was merely expressing a reluctance to judge.


That seems very reasonable, and likely is, but, unless we judge the ACTIONS, (while reserving understanding and compassion for those ACTING) how may we ever stop such things?

Perhaps we never will, but ought we not to try?

This is not about attacking USians (as people like Finn no doubt think it is), it is about hoping to demand certain standards from people entrusted with the ability to play god...frightened kids though they may be.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 01:15 am
@dlowan,
If I'm not mistaken, Apache pilots and gunners are probably more experienced and higher ranked officers. What's the lowest rank for a person entrusted with this kind of equipment? I don't know. I know lots of army folks, and I have a friend who is about to go to flight school to get trained to fly the Apache. It's ultra competitive and he has an advanced engineering degree, two tours in Iraq, a few medals, and he still worried he was under-qualified.

This is my long way of saying that I'm not convinced that this was some 19yr old fresh from boot camp.

I fully admit, I am making many assumptions on this. Has anyone read anymore into if the soldiers involved have had their names revealed?

I do judge these men. I agree. We judge actions. Given the power over another person's life is the ultimate authority, and should only be granted to those who can demonstrate excellence in judgement. this video to me demonstrates that we are giving that authority to those who do not have that high standard of good judgement.

"Come on, just pick up the gun."

It makes my hair stand up.

T
K
O
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:32 am
@Diest TKO,
I suspect it IS bloody common.

What riles me is the happiness to show what get described as "surgical strikes" and extra accurate weaponry and such, which are spoken of as though they are bloodless, and the hiding of this sort of thing. Not just by the US army, though it seems to have starred in propaganda more recently.
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