it's a poser for me

@msolga,

Yes, very strange. I'm not liking it. We need to regain our common sense.

@Mame,

You'd better tell that to the powers that be, who fear a law suite more than anything else.

I sometimes think children might think we're a bit strange, too! So proper. Smile

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Too many teachers seem to live their professional lives
hoping that their customers will not realize WHO is working for WHOM.

David

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@aidan,

aidan wrote:

Quote:
Example - I see nothing wrong with a teacher walking up to a student, who's sitting in his/her class acting up, and, standing behind their chair putting their hands on their shoulders. Not as in hitting, or applying undue pressure, but as in "all right now, I have your attention, stop what you're doing and pay attention. Same for clapping you hand on a students back and saying "Good job!" Not to be able to do that is just wrong.

You can do that - or at least I've always felt that I am able to do those things in the public school environments I've worked in.

Well then, I'm getting mixed messages here.

You say they can put hands on a student.
Others are saying you can't positively not touch a student.

Maybe y'all need to get together on what can be done and not done before this discussion proceeds.

So what is it folks?

Talk amongst yourselves.

1 Reply

@aidan,

Quote:

You might believe in 'spare the rod and spoil the child' and that's your right in your house and with your child- but I just don't want any other adult physically handling my child while angry or frustrated. Bottom line. So I think it's a good rule of thumb - zero tolerance if you will in terms of physical violence by adults at the school.

When a child realises that if he deliberately annoys a teacher there will be swift and painful repercussions, there will be a more controlled atmosphere in the classroom, and the teacher and the class will get more work done.

No wonder educational standards are slipping. The authorities have tied their own hands.

Children should be taught respect, and if that is absent, fear will have to do.

That's what it was like at my primary school, and it was a good school.

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@msolga,

msolga wrote:

You'd better tell that to the powers that be, who fear a law suite more than anything else.

I sometimes think children might think we're a bit strange, too! So proper.

Who are these powers that be, msolga?

Did they just creep in behind our backs and make these changes, unbeknowst to everyone?

Did everyone, when they woke up to this brave new world, just sigh and say "Well, that's just the way it is."?

Rather than saying "You better tell the powers that be", one must actually rein back their powers a bit, and take it back for yourself.

Who chose them to be the powers that be?

If you think it's wrong, choose someone else.

1 Reply

@chai2,

I have no idea what Ms. Olga can do at her school - I only know what I could do at the schools I worked at which were public schools in Maine, New Jersey and North Carolina in the United States.

Everyone's role in a school is different. An Algebra teacher probably has less reason to touch one of his or her students at all than a first or second grade teacher has.

So if you're looking for a hard and fast rule in terms of who touches who and how - the only hard and fast rule I can give you is I would never punitively or sexually touch a student. Other than that - if a kid puts his arm around me for an end of the year picture or if I'm crossing the street with a third grader and he or she holds my hand - you know - whatever. It's not like I've ever felt like I might get arrested. I've just never worked in a school where there was that sort of climate of hysteria. Maybe some other people do -

1 Reply

@McTag,

Quote:

When a child realises that if he deliberately annoys a teacher there will be swift and painful repercussions, there will be a more controlled atmosphere in the classroom, and the teacher and the class will get more work done.

No wonder educational standards are slipping. The authorities have tied their own hands.

Children should be taught respect, and if that is absent, fear will have to do.

That's what it was like at my primary school, and it was a good school.

I think part of the difference is definitely how you come up in terms of what's acceptable when it comes to your own kids. I grew up going to public schools in the north at the same time a lot of my friends attended public schools in the south (in the US). They were paddled with wooden paddles down there - it was against the law already in NJ - so there wasn't any of that going on.

So I can't imagine anyone but my parents being allowed to discipline me in that way - just as the people I know from the south were routinely paddled by other people and it was no big deal.

I have to say that as a teacher - I would never want to be responsible for hitting a kid with my hand, much less with an object such as a paddle. What an upsetting and emotion-ridden interruption to the learning...how the heck do you hit someone and then go back to reading group and spelling tests.
I just wouldn't have that in me.

There are certainly other ways to manage classroom behavior. I've never really had an issue with that - but then again - I've always worked for extremely supportive administrators and vice principals (whose JOB is was to enforce discipline when a child proved unable to cooperate or function in the classroom).

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Even if one believes that paddling is justified, desist. The mood of the system is against you. You will pay for touching that child. Myself, I would not hit or even grab an uncooperative child, regardless of the law. There are better ways.

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interesting comments by all. A reminder to keep in mind that In the USA) every class-room; every school; every school district, every state board of education, every dept of child protection services, every state statute varies as to definitions of permitted policy.

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@dyslexia,

Well, fortunately for us, they don't here.

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Chai - Try this from a different angle. Was the substitute teacher's action necessary?

Imagine a student humming in class and then the teacher standing up an throwing a glass of water on the face of the student. No mark, right? Does that make it okay?

I think you're missing the point here. It's not that the physical action she chose was a minor one, it is that physical discipline was (1) not necessary, and (2) beyond her authority to give.

T
K
O

1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

Chai - Try this from a different angle. Was the substitute teacher's action necessary?

Imagine a student humming in class and then the teacher standing up an throwing a glass of water on the face of the student. No mark, right? Does that make it okay?

I think you're missing the point here. It's not that the physical action she chose was a minor one, it is that physical discipline was (1) not necessary, and (2) beyond her authority to give.

T
K
O

I have no idea if the substitutes action was necessary.

Not so far as throwing a glass of water, that's silly.

Although, I'm not going to say there would never be a situation where that could occur.

Was it necessary?
I have no idea. I wasn't there.
Perhaps this kid was annoying the hell out of everyone in the class.
Maybe he wasn't.
I, and you can think of a million different scenerios. I'm not going to go there.

I don't care anymore about this specific incident, as it has been the launching point for a larger discussion.

Did she have the authority?
Apparantly not.

Maybe she should have.

I just can't envision how the educational system has come to such a point where simply touching a student amounts to abuse.

Well, maybe I can, if I use my imagination.

There are people out there who have kids because they wanted them, and have definate opinions and methods of discipline, including that no one else should ever lay a finger on their child.
I have to wonder how these children fare once they become adults, and realize not everyone operates in such a way that they are going to be constantly protected.

Other people have kids because they didn't use a condom, and a baby showed up 9 months later.
Perhaps what a teacher could think to use as a discipline is a cake walk compared to how the rest of their lives are.

Other parents do what they think is right. The major discipline is left for them to decide. But they might not mind if a teacher had the audacity to take their kid by the arm (I'm not talking aggressively) and lead them back to their seat and tell them "SIT DOWN"

littlek, you talked of a teachers patience.
Yes, that's something they definately need a large amount of.

But why do they need to be driven to the point of these perhaps unnecessary outbursts, making them lose their concentration on what their primary job is?

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

There are better ways.

Absolutely.

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@chai2,

I think you're still missing the point. It's not that the teacher touches a child in ANY way that is what draws the fire here. The teacher didn't simply touch the child. To pull on the collar of someone's clothing is far more aggressive than simply touching.

If you don't like my example about throwing water in the face of a student, then drop this rationalization argument about it "just leaving a mark."

If you want to challenge the decision that teachers should not use physical means as discipline or force a student to comply with instructions, then make your case about it. Otherwise, what's your point?

Simply put, provide me the situation where the use of physical force is necessary by a teacher. If you have any common sense, it will be for a much greater reason than a student tapping his fingers.

T
K
O

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@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

Even if one believes that paddling is justified, desist. The mood of the system is against you. You will pay for touching that child. Myself, I would not hit or even grab an uncooperative child, regardless of the law. There are better ways.

What woud u do in the event of a fight?

2 Replies

@chai2,

Quote:

Re: msolga (Post 3920848)
msolga wrote:

Quote:
You'd better tell that to the powers that be, who fear a law suite more than anything else.

I sometimes think children might think we're a bit strange, too! So proper. Smile

Chai wrote
Quote:
Who are these powers that be, msolga?

Did they just creep in behind our backs and make these changes, unbeknowst to everyone?

Did everyone, when they woke up to this brave new world, just sigh and say "Well, that's just the way it is."?

Rather than saying "You better tell the powers that be", one must actually rein back their powers a bit, and take it back for yourself.

Who chose them to be the powers that be?

If you think it's wrong, choose someone else.

Quote:

Rather than saying "You better tell the powers that be", one must actually rein back their powers a bit, and take it back for yourself.

That would be advocating strong union action (rather individuals acting in particular schools, for obvious reasons) to correct the policy wrongs in the schools in my country. I agree with you, if that's what you actually mean. Strong union action brought about by far the the best teaching & learning conditions which schools in Victoria (my state) ever had, fairly early in my teaching career. I was personally a very strong unionist, say nothing of a passionate supporter of public education & remain proud of what we achieved. However, over years, those gains were eroded away.

Quote:

Who are these powers that be, msolga?

I can only speak with real authority about how your questions apply to Australia & Australian schools. US teachers can respond from their perspective if they like.
"The powers that be" are the most important policy making authorities which influence what happens in public schools. Traditionally the states had almost total control over all aspects of education policy & issues such as teachers' wages, broad curriculum focus, corporal punishment, policies on bullying, etc. State schools are bound to follow these policies because they are legislated through state parliament. These policies are law.
Recently the federal government has become much more involved in curriculum policy & has introduced some pretty regressive policies & practices , in my opinion, but this is not the place to discuss the impact of such policies in detail. Both the state & federal governments are given their authority by the community, through the electoral system.

Quote:

Did they just creep in behind our backs and make these changes, unbeknowst to everyone?

Not exactly, but pretty close. It is not at all unusual for teachers to read about changes of education policy in the media. It is not all all unusual for teachers not to be consulted about the changes at all, though often "experts", academics who don't actually work in schools (but apparently know all about what happens in them Neutral

) have.

Quote:

Did everyone, when they woke up to this brave new world, just sigh and say "Well, that's just the way it is."?

Pretty much, sometimes, actually. Unless of course teachers (via their severely weakened & ineffectual unions) wished to pursue the matter further.

Quote:

Who chose them to be the powers that be?

The broad community. Voting at state & federal elections.

Quote:

If you think it's wrong, choose someone else

I do. I vote for neither the Labor Party(used to be left, now middle of the road & right-ish on education ) , nor the Liberal Party(conservatives). Those are are 2 main state & federal political parties.
Neither of their education positions are exactly inspiring or "in touch" with what is actually happening in our public schools, particularly the struggling ones in struggling communities. Neither are making any noises about improving one of the worst funding situations for schools in similar countries. They choose to blame teacher performance for any of the ills in the public education system. We are just doing things wrong & need to be told (by them, at no extra cost) how to do it right! Neutral

I now vote for the Greens, who by contrast, look positively enlightened, like they actually have a clue & actually care about public education. (I strongly approve of their other policies, too.) But they are a minority party, not about to hold office any time soon.

Is that an adequate answer to your questions, chai?
Ask more if you require clarification.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Teachers are legally allowed and expected to restrain a child if they are exhibiting behavior that is harmful to themselves or others. I don't know about teachers elsewhere, but in our school, we were all trained in 'therapeutic hold'- in other words - restraining in such a way so as not to inflict injury- because unfortunately - it IS necessary at times, especially in the higher grades.

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@OmSigDAVID,

That's it. Make it more and more dire, until somebody will get murdered if no kid gets hit.

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@msolga,

Yes, msolga, you answered my questions wonderfully. Very Happy

This is what happens when one isn't vigilent.

Some board is voted in by people who don't live in the trenches, and those who are effected wake up one day and realize that their authority has been undermined.

Although we are expressing it differently, I feel we are something akin to a like mind.

1 Reply

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