it's a poser for me

Before I say anything else: no touching students at all. No 1 rule.

But having said that & not knowing the teacher, the child, or the school environment at all, I can understand how such things can happen.

Having done my share of substitute teaching, I know something of the difficulties that can be encountered.

The teacher might have known absolutely zilch about the child's ADHD "condition". There is often simply not adequate time for such information to be passed on. She might have perceived the boys behaviour as "acting up" with a substitute teacher. Not exactly an unknown phenomenon.

The boy might have been acting so provocatively that she simply lost her composure & reacted spontaneously, possibly against her own better judgment. (That is assuming she was a competent teacher. She may or may not have been. She also might not have been a very experienced teacher. I don't know any of these details.)

Let me recount a similar episode I experienced while substituting at a new school, a few years ago. I discovered that I had the responsibility for one class for the whole day , which (I quickly discovered) contained a few such "troubled" children. One boy's behaviour was so over the top, that I realized that there was really nothing much I could do to moderate it at all. So, when a coordinator popped in to see how things were progressing, early in the piece, I informed him that I'd decided to leave the school at lunchtime, not see out the day. That, even though I really needed the salary (obviously), no amount of money was worth it to me to be subjected to this all day. The response from the staff was immediate & totally sympathetic. Teacher after teacher sought me out personally & said they totally agreed. That they couldn't cope with this particular boy, either. And please would I see out the day & consider returning to the school in the future? The boy was removed from that class immediately, also some lesson plans we actually provided. There hadn't been any prior to that. I saw out the day in a much more civilized classroom environment than what I'd started out with.

Sorry for raving on at this length. But these things do happen. However, whatever the details, I don't find it particularly helpful that such incidents make their way into the media in the US. It appears (to an outsider) to be some sort of nation sport, or something. I don't get it at all. It is not at all helpful to the child, the teacher or the school. What's the point, then, apart from another opportunity to get stuck into teachers? This seems very hostile to me.

Oh jesus christ.

It left a "mark" on his neck.

big deal.

Did he stop drumming his fingers?

I'll bet he did.

I'll bet he ******* paid attention for a while too.

Love ya, Chai. Love the way you just come out and say ****. But...

no longer is it acceptable and given that, the teacher was in the wrong.

In our day, no biggie. In fact, we'd get a clout on the head. But that was then and this is now. So... no touchie the students. Even in a good way.

Don't agree. "Spare the rod and spoil the child" is a good old adage, and it's as true now as it was then.

When kids and their parents think as much about their responsibilities as their "rights", society will be better off.
In the meantime, if we pander to bad behaviour instead of pulling it up short, we are just dancing to their tune.
Is it any wonder the once-respected profession of teacher has a markedly lower status today, and recruitment problems, and quality issues?

Since I don't have kids, I don't keep up on what exactly a teacher can and can't do.

I will say that if a teacher cannot touch a student in any way shape or form, that's totally wrong.

If this is the way it is today, the pendulum has swung too far in one direction.

It's actually a legal requirement, chai, at least in Australia. (I imagine it's the same in the US, UK, etc?) A teacher could be in all sorts of legal strife for touching a child in any way.

Mind you, I never perceived corporal punishment as exactly a wonderful thing & was happy to see it banned in Australian schools. Though apparently some private schools still use corporal punishment.

It's a fine line. With some children I've worked with, I've certainly HAD to touch them...I have to help them learn how to hold their pencil, I've had to help toilet disabled highschoolers, I've had to physically restrain out of control students with autism who were pulling my hair and trying to bite me...so I'm unable to do my job many times without being able to touch children.
I've also been hugged by children in the classroom.

But if a person is someone who takes their frustration at a situation out physically - they're probably better off not working in a school. Because there's a lot of that - frustrating instances- and it is just not acceptable to react toward the instigator of that frustration (no matter how reasonable it is to get frustrated) physically. Or even verbally.

There have been times when I've had to bite my tongue to keep from saying, 'Shut up!' But I know I can't - so I don't....the closest I've ever gotten is to say, 'Shush'....and the kids were funny - they said, 'We know you wanted to say 'shut-up' and at the last minute you tried to change it to 'hush' and it came out 'shush'...we all laughed- and I just said - 'Alright then - cut it out..."

You might believe in 'spare the rod and spoil the child' and that's your right in your house and with your child- but I just don't want any other adult physically handling my child while angry or frustrated. Bottom line. So I think it's a good rule of thumb - zero tolerance if you will in terms of physical violence by adults at the school.

I was talking about legal requirements of teachers in Australia, aidan.

What is the legal situation in the US?

(Yes, I know some physical contact is all but unavoidable.)

That's what I was trying to describe. If touching is warranted and necessary it's certainly not illegal. But in the public school systems I worked in, any instance of physical censure toward a child would not have been tolerated, much less condoned.

I have never, ever felt unable to hold a child's hand or accept a hug from a child in any school in which I've ever worked. But I've always had the cooperation and respect of the principals, fellow teachers and parents...if I felt at all worried that someone somewhere might misconstrue my motives or actions in that regard - I'd have made sure that any unnecessary or affectionate touching never occurred. I guess some people in some school systems feel at risk in that regard - I never have. It's certainly not as uptight as people might think it is - but then again- I'm a woman. I might feel more paranoid about it if I were a man.

Sorry, I obviously didn't read your post carefully enough, aidan

Thanks.

A) I think some of you have no idea how hard it is for ADHD kids to control their impulses - poor impulse control is actually part of the diagnosis.

B) Tapping the desk again even if he did it just to annoy her is no excuse for what she did if this article is to be taken factually.

C) However, I sometimes do see kids and their parents using disabilities as crutches.

It's the C) part that annoys me.

First, let me say I do not advocate corporal punishment. But I don't consider the action taken under that umbrella.

As for legalities, just because something is legal or illegal doesn't necessarily make it right or wrong.

I feel it's wrong to prohibit all forms of touching when dealing with a student who is misbehaving.

Example - I see nothing wrong with a teacher walking up to a student, who's sitting in his/her class acting up, and, standing behind their chair putting their hands on their shoulders.

Not as in hitting, or applying undue pressure, but as in "all right now, I have your attention, stop what you're doing and pay attention.

Same for clapping you hand on a students back and saying "Good job!"

Not to be able to do that is just wrong.

You can do that - or at least I've always felt that I am able to do those things in the public school environments I've worked in.

And if this substitute teacher had done that - there'd probably have been no issue.
But think for one minute how you'd feel if you were spacing out and somebody walked up behind you - a stranger no less - who didn't know you and who you didn't know and yanked your shirt back so that it cut into your neck as a means of getting your attention? Why is that sort of thing necessary? You might not consider it corporal punishment- but it's crossing a boundary and disrespectful. And yes, the kid might be being disrespectful to you, but you're the adult and the teacher - is it a good thing to teach him or her to react to disrespect with physical disrespect?
And yeah - it may have achieved your immediate purpose of getting him to stop his **** immediately- but what did YOU, the teacher and adult , teach that kid and all the other kids in the room? If someone's bugging you - you can just walk up and handle that person to make it stop. That's not a very good or realistic lesson for an adult to teach a child. What would you then say to a child the next time a kid was drumming his fingers on the table and another kid walked over and yanked his shirt back and you said, 'Johnny - keep your hands to yourself,' and the kid looked at you and said, 'Well, this is how you get him to stop...'

People, children and adults, use situations and circumstances as excuses and crutches all the time. Kids with ADHD and their parents are no different. I do happen to believe in the existence of ADHD. This substitute teacher probably has it. If someone drumming his or her fingers on the table elicits frustration to the point where she feels led to physically end that - she's awful distractable. She probably also has control issues. As in - 'Don't you dare defy me.' What you learn when you work with kids (or what you better learn if you plan to keep your job in a public school) is that if you make something a contest of wills - the kid will almost always win. Most kids are willing to push it further than most sane adults are.
That's why you have to make it a cooperative relationship - show and teach the kid why it's a good idea to do what you say - and not approach each issue as a reason to force them bend to your will.

Or in my country.

What the kid does or doesn't have does not alter the fact that yanking kids by the hoodie is banned.

I am interested in what Dys thinks he knows that is not in the story...as it is posted, I see no excuse for the teacher.

Sure, hand drumming is irritating, and the kid was likely more provocative than we know, but that's not an excuse for the teacher to do that to the kid.

How would you react if a kid did that to an irritating teacher?

Those are good points Msolga...re the teacher not necessarily having been warned about the kid etc...but you know? That's a failure in duty of care by the school. Subs ought to be told what the game plan is with difficult kids, too.

When security was called,
thay shoud have taken the assailant away in handcuffs for criminal prosecution.

Once someone, in this case the substitute teacher, becomes physically violent,
that justifies defensive counter-violence.





David

I've never said I thought it was right - I've repeatedly said that you can't touch kids.

And yes, chai, I agree that the pendulum has swung too far - it has on many issues. Everybody's walking on eggshells and has lost their common sense. We had that spate of sexual harassment charges up here not too long ago and later discovered some of them were bogus but the damage was done to the teacher. At the time, David Mamet wrote a play called Oleanna, outlining such a case, which ran in theatres nation-wide. It was very blunt in its condemnation of being over-eager to charge the authority figure without due investigation.

A college in Vancouver pulled a Valentine's Day poster of a boy and girl touching lips because the gay community complained that it wasn't representative of their situation.

And let's not even get into the aboriginal issues.

We're all so concentrated on not offending someone that we're being ridiculous. I've read accounts of tiny children being suspended from school because they kissed another child. Good Lord.

Not to mention not being allowed to fail kids on tests because it might damage their psyche. One friend of mine had a son who had atrocious spelling because the teachers weren't allowed to correct their mistakes. What are they going to do in the real world??

I feel very sad that a teacher can't hug a little one who's upset, pat someone on the back for a job well done, or ruffle a kid's hair affectionately. We have gone mad.

So do I, Mame.

But that's the way things are.

Strange world we teachers exist in, yes?