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DECLINES IN FISH STOCKS WORLDWIDE_the ecology of exinction

 
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2010 04:30 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
People are not stupid Cyclo. It's economics. Profits are not certain. And you are defining "long term solidity" as an abstract concept to suit your own purposes.

You're side have shown no proof that your solutions, which involve an extra layer of expense, will work better than the "Hidden Hand". All lefties think that. It's their method of working an easy ticket. It might be at the point where it can outvote the rest. Then we really are in the **** and ocean fish stocks will be way down the list of your priorities.

The boats are costing while they are idle. And deteriorating.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:02 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
And, effectively, they've succeeded.


What they have "succeeded" in doing , through boorish posting behaviour, is turning off people who were enjoying participating in an informative thread. ..... Because Ionus didn't like what other posters were saying, because it didn't reflect his particular view & he didn't know when to stop endlessly posting on his same (vague) "issue". Till we were all just about numb with it.
Spendius's motive, on the other hand, appeared to be further indulging his obsessive stalking of farmerman, on any thread going. Pretty tiresome to anyone but spendius. Personally I find this sort of forum stalking really offensive.

Me, I'm wondering why anyone would bother to go to the trouble of starting any new thread (like this one) when it involves work on their part (& it definitely does, let me tell you) & also the hassles of the commitment to keeping the thread "on track". When it can be so easily be derailed in such nonsensical & at times, offensive & irrelevant ways. By people who sometimes have minimal interest to the topic being discussed. It is very easy to undermine a thread, if one chooses to be bloody-minded, but not nearly so easy to create & maintain a good thread.

I said, in an earlier post, right now there a few threads here hold much interest for me here. Lots of "lite" threads, but not that many "meatier" threads of interest. If we are going to let troll-ish behaviour & aggressive digressions dictate discussion/debating threads here, well I think we only have ourselves to blame for the quality of the threads we end up with.

Me, I would like to see a lot more support for the people who are actually trying to create some half-interesting threads here.





dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:22 am
@msolga,
my thoughts exactly ms Olga
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:31 am
@spendius,
Quote:
A lot of women I know are happy to be dusting the ornaments, and cleaning the downstrairs windows stood on a chair and going to the shops to wallow in the cornucopia of coloured lights and reflections and gossip with the neighbours and put the evening meal, tea where I come from, "dinner" is so provincial I think, in the microwave and blow on it before serving it up to a chap with his braces down, washing up and settling down to another night of ITV with doze, brew,and weeing inserts. You can tell how many there are from the TV ratings.


WTF does this have to do with anything that's relevant to "the decline of fish stocks worldwide", spendius? Confused

Why the heck are you posting this sort of rubbish here on this thread?

Do you know anything at all about the subject of this thread?







0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:35 am
@dadpad,
Thank you, dp.

I did see that you tried to contribute to the actual subject of this thread. On a number of occasions.

Thank you for the information you provided.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 01:32 am
Tuna ban: EU squabbling, China opposed
ANNE CHAON
March 17, 2010 - 7:54AM
A bid to ban catches of bluefin tuna in two major fisheries ran into problems on Tuesday as European Union (EU) countries squabbled over the proposal while China was reported to be opposed to it.

Halting cross-border trade in bluefin caught in the eastern Atlantic and the Mediterranean is headlining the meeting of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES), running in Doha until March 25.
(snip)

At a meeting in Brussels last week, EU nations overruled opposition from Malta to say they accepted evidence stocks of tuna in the two fisheries had crashed over the past 30 years, bringing the species to the verge of extinction.

Tokyo argues that bluefin is not facing extinction, although it acknowledges that the current size of catch is probably unsustainable. The solution, it insists, is stricter management of fisheries.

© 2010 AFP
This story is sourced direct from an overseas news agency as an additional service to readers. Spelling follows North American usage, along with foreign currency and measurement units.

read the full artical here
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/tuna-ban-eu-squabbling-china-opposed-20100317-qd0u.html


from another artical
So far, fewer than 40 of the approximately 150 countries in Doha have declared their intention to back a ban. The issue will be debated on Thursday, but a vote is unlikely before next week, officials said.
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/china-opposes-bluefin-tuna-ban-japan-20100316-qcfv.html
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 01:56 am
@dadpad,
Yay, back on topic!

You're a hero, dp! Smile

dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:28 am
@dadpad,
Japan takes lies through its teeth and takes about 10% of endangered whales in its "scientific" whaling.

(They, and numerous New York restaurants, have been outed by a simple DNA fragment test which gives species at, as it were, the table. Watch this channel for more horrors!)

Why would we consider believing them on blue fin?
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:38 am
@dlowan,
Why indeed?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:46 am
A GreenPeace article on overfishing I came across recently.

Quote:
Overfishing
http://oceans.greenpeace.org/raw/image_big_teaser/en/photo-audio-video/photos/a-large-yellow-fin-tuna-being.jpg
A large yellow fin tuna being cut up. Yellow fin and big eye tuna may be commercially extinct in 3-5 years if fishing is not controlled, experts warn.

Many marine ecologists think that the biggest single threat to marine ecosystems today is overfishing. Our appetite for fish is exceeding the oceans' ecological limits with devastating impacts on marine ecosystems. Scientists are warning that overfishing results in profound changes in our oceans, perhaps changing them forever. Not to mention our dinner plates, which in future may only feature fish and chips as a rare and expensive delicacy.

More often than not, the fishing industry is given access to fish stocks before the impact of their fishing can be assessed, and regulation of the fishing industry is, in any case, woefully inadequate.

The reality of modern fishing is that the industry is dominated by fishing vessels that far out-match nature's ability to replenish fish. Giant ships using state-of-the-art fish-finding sonar can pinpoint schools of fish quickly and accurately. The ships are fitted out like giant floating factories - containing fish processing and packing plants, huge freezing systems, and powerful engines to drag enormous fishing gear through the ocean. Put simply: the fish don't stand a chance. ...<cont>


http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/oceans/overfishing
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 03:20 am
So some of us will save the whale, some of us will save the blue fin, and some of us will continue to polute and damage the basis that these species exist on. Or not. Perhaps our ability to run around like headless chooks and tackle everything at once has been exceeded.

Have a look at the map. Identify the parts that are water. Now explain to me how thinking locally will help. The title of this topic is "DECLINES IN FISH STOCKS WORLD WIDE" not what shall we do to improve the fishing for our countrymen in a localised area.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 03:22 am
Sydney Morning Herald article about the importance of tuna to Pacific islanders such as those in Kiribati & the threats they face from illegal or unsustainable over-fishing from nations such as Taiwan.:

Quote:
Fish fight crucial to survival of islanders
November 30, 2009/Sydney Morning Herald
http://images.smh.com.au/2009/11/29/931558/taiwanese-fisherman-420x0.jpg
Yes we can... a crew member on the Taiwanese long-liner Kai Jie 1 pulls in a tuna in the Pacific. Taiwan, which has the biggest tuna fleet on the high seas, is accused of overfishing. Photo: Greenpeace

Some Pacific nations need a future beyond climate change, and protecting their tuna may be the answer, writes Andrew Darby.

For island nations such as Kiribati, the Pacific Ocean, their enemy, is also their friend. The people are losing precious land to a rising sea level. But through the wide waters of the Kiribati exclusive economic zone swim the world's last great tuna shoals on long migrations across the central Pacific.


Sleek yellowfin and muscled bigeye, little skipjack and albacore in numbers so great there once seemed no limit.

If this great blue ocean has a heart, a place where people can grasp its dimension and riches, it should be Kiribati. The pinpoints of Kiribati's land amount to 810 square kilometres, or exactly Canberra's city area.

Yet the tropical exclusive economic zone is nearly half the size of mainland Australia.

As these people plan to live on less island, or even elsewhere, they cling to tuna for their economic future.

''It is very crucial for Kiribati to see … the development of tuna resources is sustainable in the long term,'' its fisheries director, Kintoba Tearo, says.

The problem for Kiribati, and its Pacific neighbours, is holding on to this treasure. Too much tuna is falling prey to illegal or unsustainable fishing by fleets from distant lands, and sought-after species are being fished down to danger levels.

Among the distant fishing countries, Taiwan has been uncovered as a culprit in the pillage of the Pacific.


Its dynamic economy supports the biggest tuna fleet on the high seas. A recent Greenpeace investigation found many of its fishers used the grey side of the law and, dealing with a powerful industry, the government in Taipei has been unable to halt it.

When you buy a can of tuna in the supermarket, it is likely to come from waters such as those of Kiribati, caught by Taiwanese fishers, even if it is labelled ''Product of Thailand'' because it was canned there. The challenge of sustaining tuna is vital to small Pacific islands, but involves us all.

Already in our experience of overfishing, the stand-out lesson is the case of bluefin tuna. These fish used to be canned too when they were numerous - but that was decades ago. Now they are much more valuable as raw sashimi fish, and stocks of the two species, southern and northern bluefin, have plunged to small fractions of their original size.

In the southern hemisphere, the Australian Government and industry in 2006 uncovered an over-catch scandal in which, Canberra said, Japanese fishers over many years in effect stole fish calculated to be worth up to $8 billion.

This year legal catches were slashed again, but still the Australian delegation leader, John Kalish, told the Commission for the Conservation of Southern Bluefin Tuna that the Government ''remains deeply concerned about compliance with national allocations of SBT''. The actual catch was still well above currently agreed limits, he said.

In the northern hemisphere, an attempt is being mounted to list bluefin under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. Official quotas were halved this month, but they are systematically exceeded.

''Only a zero catch limit could have maximised the chances that Atlantic bluefin could recover to the point where the fishery could exist in the future,'' said Susan Lieberman, a deputy director of international policy for the Pew Foundation.

It is this kind of industrial-scale pressure that faces Pacific tuna species. ...<cont>


http://www.smh.com.au/environment/fish-fight-crucial-to-survival-of-islanders-20091129-jyuc.html
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 03:29 am
@Ionus,
OK, so tell us your grand plan for saving everything at once, Ionus.
How is such a plan to be put into action across the planet? What body will oversea this grand plan?

If more people thought & acted locally, you know, this might eventually amount to something resembling a "grand plan".

Anyway, let's hear some practical suggestions from you.
How should we proceed?
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 03:43 am
@dlowan,
Many/most countries have been misreporting tuna catches for years. It is only since regulation was introduced and prices skyrocketed that information has been available to identify misreporting.
The Tiawanese have a case to answer as well.
Australian tuna fishermen catch undersize tuna and Fatten them in pens. undersize generally means they have not yet spawned.
In the mediterainain area tuna fisherment net fish on spawning grounds because theis is where they get the easiest catches.
What chance does the poor old tuna have?

I"ve come to the conclusion that some wild tuna fishing should be maintained. Current research into artificial breeding is going ahead in at least japan and Australia and high prices for wild harvested fish mean funding can be provided for ongoing research.
It is problematic that fishing in internatuional waters is so underpoliced.
In addition to misreporting, bycatch (those fish and other creatures that are not the target species) needs to be monitored as well.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 03:50 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
So some of us will save the whale, some of us will save the blue fin, and some of us will continue to polute and damage the basis that these species exist on. Or not. Perhaps our ability to run around like headless chooks and tackle everything at once has been exceeded.

Have a look at the map. Identify the parts that are water. Now explain to me how thinking locally will help. The title of this topic is "DECLINES IN FISH STOCKS WORLD WIDE" not what shall we do to improve the fishing for our countrymen in a localised area.


The GreenPeace article about over-fishing (that it appears you were responding to) was addressing this issue in an across the board manner.

Do you disagree with the content of this article (which you apparently gave a thumbs down vote)?

If so, could you explain what your objections are to the content of this article?

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/oceans/overfishing
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 04:07 am
@msolga,
Ionus, I know all to well, from watching the International Whaling Commission shenanigans over many years, that it is extremely difficult to bind all member nations to the majority vote of the organization, even.

You are poo-pooing local actions in regard to over-fishing, saying we should go for the the entire big picture, or it's a waste of time.

Apart from voting down my posts, it would be enlightening to hear your suggestions on how we might tackle the problem of over-fishing across all the world's oceans, all at the one time.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 04:39 am
@msolga,
Quote:
If more people thought & acted locally, you know, this might eventually amount to something resembling a "grand plan".


There doesn't even need to be a "grand plan." It's a canard to suggest that either we cover all the bases and solve all the problems at once, or our efforts are wasted. Years and years ago, in the United States, one of the world's largest consumers of tuna, there was an effort started to get school children to refuse to eat tuna unless they could be assured it came from a source which did not endanger dolphins. The response was huge, and immediate. The effect was also immediate. Not only did the suppliers of the major brands of tuna rush to assure their customers that their tuna was "dolphin friendly," but the Congress passed legislation to forbid the sale of tuna in the United States which harmed dolphins, and to require that tuna sold in the United States come only from catches which were monitored to assure compliance.

Acting locally can be tremendously effective. The opposite is also true. The devastation of tuna stocks, especially bluefin and yellowfin tuna results from callous disregard in Japan and by eaters of sashimi in other countries.

It's an absurdity to suggest that if a global problem cannot be solved at once and on a global scale, any other effort is wasted.
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 04:41 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Yay, back on topic!

You're a hero, dp! Smile


Mr. Pad has contributed a lot of interesting and informative material to this thread.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 05:01 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
There doesn't even need to be a "grand plan." It's a canard to suggest that either we cover all the bases and solve all the problems at once, or our efforts are wasted.


I know that. You know that. Any number of committed people know that, Setanta.

But (as you might have noticed) I was responding to Ionus's negative perceptions of local action.

In his eyes local actions are a waste of time, because we are not finding solutions to the whole (world wide) problem of over-fishing of the oceans.

It would be fantastic if there actually were some world-wide bodies with real authority in existence which could tackle the problem. But the reality is that issues like over-fishing are dealt with in an unsatisfactory piece meal fashion. The only world-wide bodies with are taking such issues seriously are scientific & conservation organizations, from what I can see. And they certainly (at this point in time) can do little but advise & alert us, they cannot enforce word-wide adherence to any particular course of action.

So, what are are individual nations, or concerned people around the planet supposed to do, then? Sit around & twiddle our thumbs till some coordinated activity finally miraculously appears?

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 05:11 am
@msolga,
Quote:
Spendius's motive, on the other hand, appeared to be further indulging his obsessive stalking of farmerman, on any thread going. Pretty tiresome to anyone but spendius. Personally I find this sort of forum stalking really offensive.


Olga--if you check out farmerman's first 4 pages of "My posts" you will discover, at a glance, that there are a number of threads he has been on in recent days which I have not gone near. So your statement there is flat out wrong.

In his last 40 posts there are 13 threads he has contributed to that I have not and 2 threads I have. The 2 I have are this one and an evolution thread. I have been on the evolution threads for six years and so has he. This one I am interested in because I once had a share in a small fishing boat.

So I have no obsessive interest in stalking farmerman and you have no right to find my contributions on those two threads stalking. I think you should retract you very silly remark and apologise for it.

On the basis you have used, you could say nearly anybody is stalking somebody.

I have asked someone the price of a tin of tuna. 75 pence was the answer. That fact should tell you all you need to know about whether stocks are in decline.

And when you categorise anybody you don't agree with as boorish and then flatter somebody who offered violence, a criminal action, you simply make yourself look foolish.

This is not a thread for "enjoying". It is a serious thread. If it has "numbed" you then you are really not up for serious debate and your defence of fish is demonstrated to be an affectation. I don't eat fish. Nor do I eat meat. If you eat fish then you are contributing to the decline of fish stocks and I am not.

It does not take what I call work to start a thread. There are no hassles keeping a thread on track. It's easy. Neither Ionus or myself have derailed the thread. Where we have gone off topic it has been to respond to emotionally driven accusations. As in this case. Your post here has nothing to do with fish stocks. It is an attempt to shaft a fellow A2Ker who you don't agree with.

Your side have not made one single suggestion about how to protect fish stocks. All you have done is parrot certain propagandists who are on your side of the fence and we all know everything they are likely to say. They are doom-mongers. Pessimists. Socialists. Interfering busy-bodies.

The whole process is self correcting as an evolutionist will tell you.

Your side are the trolls. You have even chosen to respond to Setanta who is not even in the debate and knows nothing about the subject.

There are hardly any more subjects of greater interest than reducing population and reducing consumption of the earth's resources. Ionus and myself have raised both those subjects and your side does not want to know. And I know why and I assume Ionus does.

This is a massive political issue which could involve actual war. There was gunboat action off Iceland not that long ago over fishing rights. There are laws relating to international waters.

Your side are not at the table. You are indulging in coffee-morning chit-chat which has no relevance to the matter and is nothing but a hypocritical posing fest. The logic of your case is that the UN becomes a World Government and polices the oceans using force if necessary.

You're out of your depth Olga and so is your claque. What you know about this subject could be engraved on a wren's egg with a pneumatic road drill.
 

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