2
   

why is the neutal wire on the right and live on the left? what is the reason for maintainig standard

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 09:32 pm
Why do you have to use a separated conductor for grounding and for neutral?

General information
There are multiple reasons why modern electrical wiring is done so that there are separate wires for neutral and ground. Two most important reasons are the following:


1. Safety
When there are separate wires for neutral and ground it is much less likely that a problem in electrical wiring causes a dangerous situation which will cause electrical shock or fire.

If the ground and neutral were the same conductor, the cutting only the neutral wire (for example by accident) would cause the grounded metal case of the equipment to be on mains potential just because there is only live connected to equipment and that voltage can go through the equipment to the cut neutral cable and from there to equipment case.

When ground and neutral are separate, then cut neutral causes only the equipment to stop working and no dangerous situation. If ground gets cut by accident, there is no danger caused before some equipment gets damaged. So when there is separate wires for neutral and ground, a singe wire fault (cut or short circuit to other wire) on any wire going to outlet does not cause immediate danger to the user of the equipment:

Live shorted to ground or neutral: fuse blows immediatly. When fuse is blown then the dangers of electricity are gone.
Neutral shorted to ground: No immediate danger to use, just nasty ground loop problems start to occur. If there is GFCI or other ground leakage detector in wiring, it will cut the power to the outlet.
Live or neutral cut: Equipment just stops getting the power
Ground wire cut: The safety ground to equipment is lost.It continues to work nicely and there is no danger as long as there is no fault inside the equipment. Potentially as dangerous situation as using ungrounded outlet in same place, bur no immediate danger.
So any single failure does not cause great danger. So the for safety sense separate ground and neutral wires are a very good idea.


2. Minimizing the ground potential differences between outlet grounds
In an ideal reparate grounding wire system there is no current flowing in ground wire network, so there is no voltage difference between grounds on different outlets. Unfortunately in real life systems there is always some current leakign to ground, but that current is very small (only propably milliamperes) compared to the current flowing on line and neutral wires (usually amperes).

If the neutral and ground were shared on same wire, the current flowing on neutral wire would easily cause a large voltage difference (up to many volts) on different outlets grounds. The ground potential on any outlet will then depend on the load current, neutral wire resistance and the mains phase it is connected to.


Conclusion
For the conclusion we can say that separate ground and neutral conductors are a very good thing in providing good electrical wiring security and minimizing ground potential difference between different outlets. So it is no wonder why modern electrical wiring regulations call for this arrangement in many applictions.


If the neutral to ground difference a problem when separate wires ared ?
In large computers, neutral to ground voltages are originated because nonlinear currents flow through the neutral wire. In general always when there is some current flowing in neutral wire, there will be a ground ot neutral wire voltage difference on output end, because there is no current flowing on ground wire. In some computer systems the voltage differences are considered to be problem, because it has been reported to cause cause improper behaviour like "hangouts" on some computer systems.

It is true that in some special cases neutral to ground voltages can cause this kidn of problems, but in those cases it is not to blame the separate wires, because the problem lies in some other place. In properly built electrical wirign network, the neutral to ground voltage differences will never be more than few volts and any properly designed electrical equipment should not be disturbed of this kind of small voltage differences.

If the equipment gets disturbed of this small main frequency voltage, claim the manufacturer/designer of that particular equipment for doing bad job. Computer equipments can be easily deigned to cope few volts of voltage differences between neutral and ground. Most of the modern euquipments are designed to cope this.

If the voltage difference between your neutral and ground is much larger than few volts or there is very good propability that there is somethign wrong on you main wiring. So it is best that an electrician goes and checks your wiring before more problem and damages happen.

In some cases the neutral actual to ground voltage is not the problem, but the wavefor of the voltage. Non-linear loads like computer power supplies and light dimmers can cause some considerable noise between neutral and ground. Such noise can be more problematic than just a simple voltage difference, but equipment should still be able to cope quite fair amount of it (EMC regulations etc.). If you have considerable amounts of noise on neutral wire used by nonlinear loads, then you can again blaim the improper design of the electrical wiring. This kind of problems can be solved by good wiring design practices: separate electrical wiring from main panel/transformer to the equipments which cause noisen and to equipments which are sensitive to it. This is good practice and keep problems away.

If you would have on those cases had a wiring with common neutral and ground wire, you would have terrible ground potential diffeences between different outlets. In cases were ther problems neutral to ground voltage differences in separate ground and neutral wire wiring start cause problem, a wiring with common ground+neutral wire there would be so much ground potential differences between outlets that any equipments connected to different electrical outlets and interconnected would work very erratically, you would propably cause many equipment damages. Computer sustems are generally much more sensitive to the ground potential differences than ground to neutral differences.

The bottom line is that separate ground and neutral wire is a good thing for many problems. It solves more problems that what it potentially causes. And in wery rare situations where separate ground and neutral wires cause some problems, in those same situations a wiring with connon neutral+ground wire would have caused much more but different kind of problems in form of ground potential differences. When taking account situation where computers are interconnected/networked, a good stable ground potential for aal equipment is much more important than very small neutral to ground potential. Separate ground and neutral wires is a good method to keep the outlet grounds at same potential, which is very important in networked computer systems.


http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/neutral_ground_separate.html
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 09:39 pm
@Intrepid,
I suspect Chumly's point is that the generic names/commonly used names don't actually fit with what's what in electricity. That's certainly fair enough for electricians.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 09:41 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

I suspect Chumly's point is that the generic names/commonly used names don't actually fit with what's what in electricity. That's certainly fair enough for electricians.


But not for the average Joe
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 09:47 pm
@Intrepid,
I thought that went without saying but with it now said, that's moot.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Feb, 2010 01:33 pm
@edgarblythe,
Was the change to separate "neutral" and ground wires solely a safety issue? There was obviously a long period of time where residential wiring was just 2 wire w/ NO ground. When did the switch, oops better use change, when did the change to 2 wire w/ ground actually occur, mid sixties??
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Feb, 2010 03:15 pm
@JTT,
It I remember my history correctly the three wire system was part of the first power systems before the 1900s.

If you mean the ground wire being available at the outlets that did come must later the 1960s or so.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Feb, 2010 03:34 pm
@JTT,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets


Early history
When electricity was first introduced into the household, it was primarily used for lighting. At that time, many electricity companies operated a split-tariff system where the cost of electricity for lighting was lower than that for other purposes. This led to portable appliances (such as vacuum cleaners, electric fans, and hair driers) being connected to the light fitting.


U.S. Patent 774,250. The first electric power plug and receptacle.However, as electricity became a common method of lighting houses and operating labour-saving appliances, a safe means of connection to the electric system other than using a light socket was needed. The original two pin electrical plug and socket were invented by Harvey Hubbell and patented in 1904. Other manufacturers adopted the Hubbell pattern and by 1915 they were widespread, although in the 1920s and even later, household and light commercial equipment was still powered through cables connected with Edison screw-base adapters to lampholders.[3][4][5]

The three-prong plug was invented by Philip F. Labre, while he was attending the Milwaukee School of Engineering (MSOE).[contradiction] It is said that his landlady had a cat which would knock over her fan when it came in the window. When she plugged the fan back in, she would get an electric shock. Labre figured out that if the plug were grounded, the electricity would go to earth through the plug rather than through his landlady. A german patent for the grounded design called the schuko was issued two years earlier in 1926, and is still in use today in over 40 countries. He applied for and was issued a US patent for grounding receptacle and plug on June 5, 1928.[6] As the need for safer installations became apparent, earthed three-contact systems were made mandatory in most industrial countries.

[edit] Proliferation of standards
During the first fifty years of commercial use of electric power, standards developed rapidly based on growing experience. Technical, safety, and economic factors influenced the development of all wiring devices and numerous varieties were invented. Gradually the desire for trade eliminated some standards that had been used only in a few countries. Former colonies may retain the standards of the colonising country, occasionally"as with the UK and a number of its former colonies"after the colonising country has changed its standard. Sometimes offshore industrial plants or overseas military bases use the wiring practices of their controlling country instead of the surrounding region. Hotels and airports may maintain receptacles of foreign standards for the convenience of travellers. Some countries have multiple voltages, frequencies and plug designs in use, which can create inconvenience and safety hazards.

[edit] Design for safety
Design features and aspects of plugs and sockets have evolved to reduce the risk of electric shock and equipment damage. Depending on the plug/socket system, safety measures may include pin and slot configuration to permit only the correct insertion of plug into socket, earth pins longer than power pins so the device becomes earthed before power is connected, insulated pin shanks to reduce or eliminate live-contact exposure when a plug is partially inserted in a socket, socket slot shutters that open only for the correct plug, as well as inbuilt fuses and switches.

[edit] Consolidation of standards
In recent years many countries have settled on one of a few de facto standards, which became formalised as official national standards, although there remain older installations of obsolete wiring in most countries. Some buildings have wiring that has been in use for almost a century and which pre-dates all modern standards.

There has been some movement towards consolidation of standards for international interoperability. For example, the CEE 7/7 plug (see below) has been adopted in several European countries and is compatible with both Type E and Type F sockets, while the unpolarised Europlug is compatible with an even greater proportion of European and other socket types. IEC 60906-1 has been proposed as a common standard for all 230-V plugs and sockets worldwide but has only been adopted in Brazil to date.


IEC power cord with CEE 7/7 plug at left end.Many manufacturers of electrical devices like personal computers have adopted the practice of putting a single world-standard IEC connector on the device, and supplying for each country a power cord equipped with a standard IEC connector on one end and a national power plug at the other. The device itself is designed to adapt to a wide range of voltage and frequency standards. This has the practical benefit of reducing the amount of testing required for approval, and reduces the number of different product variations that must be produced to serve world markets.

[edit] World maps
See also: Mains power around the world

Voltage/Frequency.
Plugs.There are two basic standards for voltage and frequency in the world. One is the North American standard of 110"120 volts at a frequency of 60 Hz, which uses plugs A and B, and the other is the European standard of 220"240 volts at 50 Hz, which uses plugs C to M. The differences arose for historical reasons as discussed in the article Mains electricity.

Countries on other continents have adopted one of these two voltage standards, although some countries use variations or a mixture of standards. The outline maps show the different plug types, voltages and frequencies used around the world,[7] color-coded for easy reference.

[edit] Types in present use
Electrical plugs and their sockets differ by country in shape, size and type of connectors. The type used in each country is set by national standards legislation.[8] In this article each type is designated by a letter designation from a U.S. government publication [7], plus a short comment in parentheses giving its country of origin and number of contacts. Subsections then detail the subtypes of each type as used in different parts of the world.

IEC Classes are assigned to electrical devices depending on whether or not they are earthed and the degree of insulation they incorporate. Class I, for example, refers to earthed equipment, while class II refers to unearthed equipment protected by double insulation.

Special purpose sockets may be found in residential, industrial, commercial or institutional buildings. These may be merely labelled or coloured, or may have different arrangements of pins or keying provisions. Some special-purpose systems are incompatible with general-purpose lighting and appliances. Examples of systems using special purpose sockets include:

"clean" ground for use with computer systems,
emergency power supply,
uninterruptible power supply, for critical or life-support equipment,
isolated power for medical instruments,
"balanced" or "technical" power used in audio and video production studios,
theatrical lighting
outlets for electric clothes dryers, electric ovens, and air conditioners with higher current rating.
Depending on the nature of the system, special-purpose sockets may just identify a reserved use of a system (for example, computer power) or may be physically incompatible with utility sockets to prevent use of unintended equipment which could create electrical noise or other problems for the intended equipment on the line.

[edit] Type A
Main article: NEMA 1

Unpolarized type A plugNEMA 1"15 (North American 15 A/125 V ungrounded)

Unusual American 5-receptacle Type A outlet, ca. 1928This plug and socket, with two flat parallel non-coplanar blades and slots, is used in most of North America and on the east coast of South America on devices not requiring a ground connection, such as lamps and "double-insulated" small appliances. It has been adopted by 38 countries outside North America[vague], and is standardized in the U.S. by the National Electrical Manufacturers Association.[9] NEMA 1"15 sockets have been prohibited in new construction in the United States and Canada since 1962, but remain in many older homes and are still sold for replacement. Type A plugs are still very common because they are compatible with type B (three-prong) sockets.

Initially, the plug's prongs and the socket's slots were the same height, so the plug could be inserted into the socket either way around. Most sockets and plugs manufactured from the 1950s onward are polarized by means of a neutral blade/slot wider than the live blade/slot, so the plug can be inserted only the right way. Polarized type A plugs will not fit in unpolarized type A sockets, because both slots are narrow, but both unpolarized and polarized type A plugs will fit in polarized type A sockets and in type B (three-prong) sockets. Some devices that do not distinguish between neutral and live, such as sealed electronic power supplies, are still produced with unpolarized type A pins (both narrow).


Japanese outlet with earthing post, for a washing machine.JIS C 8303, Class II (Japanese 15 A/100 V ungrounded)
The Japanese plug and socket are identical to NEMA 1"15. However, the Japanese system incorporates stricter dimensional requirements for the plug housing, different marking requirements, and mandatory testing and approval by MITI or JIS.[10]

Many Japanese outlets and multi-plug adapters are unpolarized"the slots in the sockets are the same size"and will accept only unpolarized plugs. Japanese plugs generally fit into most North American outlets without trouble, but polarized North American plugs may require adapters or replacement non-polarized plugs to connect to older Japanese outlets. However, in Japan voltage is supplied at only 100 volts and the frequency in eastern Japan is 50 rather than 60 Hz, so North American devices which can be plugged into Japanese sockets may not function properly though devices with rectified power supplies may work without problems.

[edit] Type B
Main article: NEMA 5
NEMA 5"15 plug, left. Decorative-style duplex outlet, center. Ordinary duplex outlet, right.NEMA 5"15 (North American 15 A/125 V grounded)
The type B plug has two flat parallel blades like type A, but has a round or U-shaped grounding prong (American standard NEMA 5-15/CSA 22.2, No.42).[9] It is rated for 15 amperes at 125 volts. The ground pin is longer than the live and neutral blades, so the device is grounded before the power is connected. Nearly always both current blades on type B plugs are narrow since the ground pin enforces polarity. This has the unfortunate effect that when a misguided individual cuts off the ground pin to fit it to a type A outlet or extension cord, the live/neutral polarity is lost. Type A plugs are also compatible with type B sockets. In this case, the socket retains polarity enforcement. Adapters that allow a type B plug to be fitted to a type A outlet are readily available. Proper grounding is dependent on the outlet being an ordinary duplex receptacle with a grounded center screw, and the grounding tab of the adapter being connected to that screw.

The 5"15 socket is standard in all of North America (Canada, the United States and Mexico). It is also used in Central America, the Caribbean, northern South America (Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela and part of Brazil), Japan, Taiwan and Saudi Arabia. Looking directly at a type B outlet with the ground at the bottom, the neutral slot is on the left, and the live slot is on the right. They may also be installed with the ground at the top or on either side.

In some parts of the United States and all of Canada, tamper-resistant outlets are now required in new construction. These prevent contact by objects like keys or paper clips inserted into the receptacle.[11]


5"20R T-slot receptacle mounted with the ground hole up. The neutral connection is the wider T-shaped slot on the lower right.In the theater, this connector is sometimes known as PBG for "Parallel Blade with Ground", Edison or Hubbell, the name of a common manufacturer.[citation needed]

NEMA 5"20 (North American 20 A/125 V grounded)
This is a 20-amp receptacle with a T-slot for the neutral blade, and allows either 15-ampere parallel-blade plugs or 20-ampere plugs to be used.

JIS C 8303, Class I (Japanese 15 A/100 V grounded)
Japan also uses a Type B plug similar to the North American one.[10] However it is less common than its Type A equivalent.

[edit] Type C

CEE 7/16 plug and socket(Not to be confused with the 3-blade C13 and C14 IEC connectors)

CEE 7/16 (Europlug 2.5 A/250 V ungrounded)
For more details on this topic, see Europlug.
This two-prong plug is popularly known as the Europlug. The plug is ungrounded and has two round 4 mm (0.157 in) pins, which usually converge slightly towards their free ends. It is described in CEE 7/16[12] and is also defined in Italian standard CEI 23-5 and Russian standard GOST 7396. This plug is intended for use with devices that require 2.5 amps or less. Because it is unpolarised, it can be inserted in either direction into the socket, so live and neutral are connected at random. The separation and length of the pins allow its safe insertion in most CEE 7/17, Type E (French), type F (CEE 7/4 "Schuko"), Type H (Israeli), CEE 7/7, Type J (Swiss), Type K (Danish) and Type L (Italian) outlets, as well as BS 4573 UK shaver sockets. It can be forced into type D (5 amp) and G sockets, it is a common misconception that this is unsafe; however, there is, technically, no reason why it would create any more of a hazard than if it were plugged into a normal Type C socket. The caveat is that plugs going into type G should be fused appropriately as a faulty device can pull up to 32 A from the ring circuit.


The Europlug (plug only, not socket from the picture) is used in Class II applications throughout continental Europe (Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey and Ukraine). It is also used in the Middle East, most African nations, South America (Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Peru and Bolivia), Asia (Bangladesh, Indonesia and Pakistan) as well as Russia and the former Soviet republics, such as Armenia, Georgia, and many developing nations. It is also used alongside the BS 1363 in many nations, particularly former British colonies.


CEE 7/17 plugCEE 7/17 (German/French 16 A/250 V ungrounded)
This plug also has two round pins but the pins are 4.8 mm (0.189 in) in diameter like types E and F and the plug has a round plastic or rubber base that stops it being inserted into small sockets intended for the Europlug. Instead, it fits only into large round sockets intended for types E and F. The base has holes in it to accommodate both side contacts and socket earth pins. It is used for large appliances, and in South Korea for all domestic non-earthed appliances. It is also defined in Italian standard CEI 23-5. Can also be safely inserted in to Israeli type H sockets, although with some difficulty.



BS 4573 socketBS 4573 (UK shaver)
In the United Kingdom and Ireland, what appears to be a larger version of the type C plug exists for use with shavers (electric razors) in bath or shower rooms.[13] In fact it was not derived from the type C plug at all, but was a legacy from the obsolete 2 pin 5 amp plug used in Britain in the 1920s and 1930s but still prevalent, especially in bathrooms, as late as the 1960s. It has 0.2 in (5.08 mm) diameter pins 5⁄8 in (15.88 mm) apart, and the sockets for this plug are often designed to accept unearthed CEE 7/16, US or Australian plugs as well. Sockets are often able to supply either 230V or 115V. In wet zones, they must contain an isolation transformer compliant with BS 3535.




Soviet plug (6 A/250 V ungrounded)
The Soviet plug, still widely used in modern Russia, has pin dimensions
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Feb, 2010 05:14 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
If you mean the ground wire being available at the outlets that did come must later the 1960s or so.


That's my memory too, Bill but that seems strange, considering that it was patented in 1928; not strange that I'm disagreeing with your idea of the 60s, but that it took so long.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Feb, 2010 05:54 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Bill but that seems strange, considering that it was patented in 1928; not strange that I'm disagreeing with your idea of the 60s, but that it took so long.


Billions of outlets and an electric code that is slow to change due to the many many stake holders involved.

Second the electric code was more concern with fire safety as in insurance companies to start with then reducing the risk of electric shocks that most times are more annoying then harmful.

That is my guess as why it took so long.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 01:12 pm
No matter how many people mis-understand and/or mis-name the "neutral" it does not change the fact that you cannot have a "neutral" with only two conductors. In a single phase system you must have a minimum of three conductors to have a "neutral". In a three phase system you must have a minimum of four conductors to have a "neutral".

A "neutral" by definition carries the unbalanced load, this is impossible with only two conductors

This brings to mind just a few further examples where many people mis-understand and/or mis-name. Alas many Internet sources (and some publications) are chock full of errors when it comes to power distribution nomenclature and theory:

Line
Load
Identified conductor
Grounded conductor
Ground
Bond
System ground
True Power
Apparent power
Reactive power

The logical fallacy Argumentum Ad Populum (witness Francis et al) rears its ugly head often when it comes to power distribution nomenclature and theory.

I further note a lot of the posters have mis-understood and/or mis-named the term "ground".
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 01:34 pm
@Chumly,
Quote:
No matter how many people mis-understand and/or mis-name the "neutral" it does not change the fact that you cannot have a "neutral" with only two conductors. In a single phase system you must have a minimum of three conductors to have a "neutral". In a three phase system you must have a minimum of four conductors to have a "neutral".


I agree, Chumly, that you can't have a "neutral" but you most certainly can have a neutral.

I suspect that neither your given name nor your family name is Chumly but you respond to it here. Are you "mis-named"?
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 01:36 pm
At the risk of oversimplification the “ground wire” is the wire connecting the “system” to the “ground” whereas the “the bond wire” is the “bonding” of the “system” to the “ground”.

So when most people talking about “grounding” or the “ground wire” they are incorrect as they are actually referencing “bonding” or the “bond wire”.

Also neither the “ground wire” nor “bond wire” are a “conductor” as they do not nominally carry current.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 01:45 pm
@Chumly,
While this is all very useful for your average electrician, Chumly, it isn't all that useful for your average Joe or Pete, Fred or Susie.

Are the bond wires connected to the ground wire in the sense that, if the bond wire becomes energized, the current will flow thru the grounding wire to ground?

Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 01:48 pm
@JTT,
As you well should know I did not say you can't have a "neutral", I said you cannot have a "neutral" with only two wires because the definition of a "neutral" is that it carries the "unbalanced load".

The quotes are to emphasize the defacto standard as per power distribution nomenclature and are not relevant to your argument based on semantics.
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 02:00 pm
@JTT,
I'll try and answer your question fully when I come back later, but I wholly disagree with you claim as per "it isn't all that useful for your average Joe or Pete, Fred or Susie".

In fact the premier purpose of the Canadian Electrical Code (and it respected ilk such as the National Electrical Code) is to prevent fire and loss of life!

A solid understanding and implementation of grounding, bonding and neutral configuration is absolutely essential even for a simple single phase residential circuit.

As to whether the "average Joe or Pete, Fred or Susie" should be messing with this type of wiring, in this case I will defer to Google as per "electrical fires" , "electrical shock" etc.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 02:33 pm
@Chumly,
I'm fully aware of what your quotes were for, Chumly. That does not negate the fact that the word neutral has wider meanings, correct?

It is not a misnomer. It is one particular use, one that is relevant, that exists outside the normal jargon that some/most electricians use.
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 04:24 pm
To address your question: “Are the bond wires connected to the ground wire in the sense that, if the bond wire becomes energized, the current will flow thru the grounding wire to ground?”

To oversimplify (for the sake of clarification and with the requisite caveats) there is a single ground wire and it goes from the neutral point to ground (earth). The ground may be an “In situ ground” such as a well casing or it may be an “artificial ground” such as a “grounding elctrodes” or it may be...

The purpose of good bonding is to ensure a low impedance path to ground (and it needs to be understood that ground is common with the neutral point).

OK then it now it needs to be understood that said low impedance path is to ensure the circuit protection device (fuse, breaker etc) triggers thus avoiding a fire.

Bonding and grounding are not directly and specifically to make the power distribution system somehow safer if one was to touch a single conductor.
In fact it can be argued that an ungrounded, unbonded (thus isolated) system is safer from the perspective of touching a single conductor!

Now it should be understood when touching two conductors you will not be safer with an unbonded, ungrounded (thus isolated) system versus a bonded, grounded system. Both would have the same risk (all other conditions being the same except as mentioned)
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 04:42 pm
@JTT,
If you wish to claim that the word "neutral" has other uses beside how it’s correctly used as per power distribution nomenclature, then I see no relevance to said assertion within the context of my posts. Further, that you embrace the logical fallacy Non Sequitur does not lend credence to your post.

Also I would take a partial exception to your use of the word "jargon" as it relates to the word "neutral":

jar·gon
"noun
1.the language, esp. the vocabulary, peculiar to a particular trade, profession, or group: medical jargon.
2.unintelligible or meaningless talk or writing; gibberish.
3.any talk or writing that one does not understand.
4.pidgin.
5.language that is characterized by uncommon or pretentious vocabulary and convoluted syntax and is often vague in meaning.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jargon

In actual fact the word is fairly simple and somewhat self-explanatory within the context of (for example) a three wire single phase power distribution system (as found in virtually all residential homes in all of North America) because the current in the neutral carries the difference between the two lines; you might say it neutralizes the difference in the two line currents.

Further the word "neutral" as used for power distribution systems as found in virtually all residential homes in North America is in common use. That is it often used inaccurately does not, in and of itself, make the correct use of the word in the same context so-called "jargon".
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 05:08 pm
@BillRM,
You demonstrate ignorance: "all three phases coming into it". Should one expect there might possibly be two phases as per modern polyphase? As to your bizarre assertion of circuits "linking" to a “single phase” who knows where you got your weird nomenclature.

Most to the point:
a) you rely on the straw man logical fallacy in your ineffectual attempts
b) you are weak with your power distribution nomenclature
c) your electrical theory appears to rest on soft ground indeed
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 05:38 pm
@Chumly,
Quote:
If you wish to claim that the word "neutral" has other uses beside how it’s correctly used as per power distribution nomenclature, then I see no relevance to said assertion within the context of my posts. Further, that you embrace the logical fallacy Non Sequitur does not lend credence to your post.


Ditch the Occom Bill "List of Latin buzzwords". If you feel a real need to use them at least understand their meanings.

As Einstein said, "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

The facts clearly show that the word neutral has uses outside of the framework of power distribution nomenclature. Reality also tells us that.

Quote:
Also I would take a partial exception to your use of the word "jargon" as it relates to the word "neutral":

jar·gon
"noun
1.the language, esp. the vocabulary, peculiar to a particular trade, profession, or group: medical jargon.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jargon


Now why on earth would you do that, take any exception? Meaning number 1 describes my use of 'jargon' perfectly. The others should alert you to the fact that a word can have other meanings/nuances.

Quote:
In actual fact the word is fairly simple and somewhat self-explanatory within the context of (for example) a three wire single phase power distribution system (as found in virtually all residential homes in all of North America) because the current in the neutral carries the difference between the two lines; you might say it neutralizes the difference in the two line currents.

Further the word "neutral" as used for power distribution systems as found in virtually all residential homes in North America is in common use. That is it often used inaccurately does not, in and of itself, make the correct use of the word in the same context so-called "jargon".


Read meaning 1 once more. That's exactly what it does. Just because it is a meaning that is listed beside other meanings does not mean that it somehow acquires some of their meanings/nuances. There is no seepage here. 'jargon', meaning #1, holds that meaning for the said circumstances.

In actual fact the word is fairly simple and somewhat self-explanatory within the context of (for example), what is commonly used among a large majority of the population to describe the "white" wire in a 2 or 3 wire circuit.

And even to publications that are aimed at helping those who want to dabble in this dangerous art.

Quote:
Neutral wire in 3-wire cable

Rule 4-034(4) requires a pigtail so that only one neutral conductor needs to connect to the neutral terminal on the receptacle.

Neutral Wire - ... the neutral is not required. Both neutral conductors ...


There are many many more examples that I don't feel all that inclined to type out.




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