cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Dec, 2002 11:01 pm
Tantor, Your MO is the same as that of the Israelis. I don't see much success in their way of trying to win their war against terrorism. What I see is more martyrs and more suicide bombings. I hope I'm wrong, but the increasing numbers of dead innocents tells me their strategy isn't working. Good luck with your war. I think I'll stick with trying to remain a good a pacifist, and leave the wars to GWBush and people like you. c.i.
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Dec, 2002 11:42 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Tantor, Your MO is the same as that of the Israelis. I don't see much success in their way of trying to win their war against terrorism. What I see is more martyrs and more suicide bombings. I hope I'm wrong, but the increasing numbers of dead innocents tells me their strategy isn't working. Good luck with your war. I think I'll stick with trying to remain a good a pacifist, and leave the wars to GWBush and people like you. c.i.


You need to bone up on the Israeli counter-terror operations, which are remarkably successful. There is an excellent article in this month's Vanity Fair that details the Israeli strategy of killing the terrorists. It works.

The basic strategy is to capture what terrorists they can, squeeze them for information, and then methodically kill the leadership. The result of this approach is that the Israelis intercept dozens of wannabe suicide bombers for every one that gets through. Destroying the terrorist cadre that recruits, equips, and tasks the bombers successfully suppresses terrorist attacks. If all the people in terrorist organization are killed, that presents a significant obstacle to achieving its goals.

I challenge that being a pacifist is good. When you do nothing in the face of evil, you are not doing good. You are simply facilitating evil.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Dec, 2002 11:46 pm
Tantor, When the world has people like you, some of us have the luxury of being the peaceniks. c.i.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 12:01 am
Tantor, our entertaining Pollyana of Pulcritude, actually said the following:
Quote:
You need to bone up on the Israeli counter-terror operations, which are remarkably successful. There is an excellent article in this month's Vanity Fair that details the Israeli strategy of killing the terrorists. It works.


Boy, does it ever. Israel, the country totally free and safe for it's citizens.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 12:10 am
Tantor, FYI, Not all Israelis believe as you do. They have peaceniks too! c.i.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 07:05 am
A little more of that there Israeli expertise applied here, an' US coffin manufacturers will enjoy an unprecedented boom in sales . . .
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 11:27 am
Ditto! Let'm go on long enough and a Lottism comes out!

c.i., our problem is that when they are through, we have to bring order back and mop up the messes.

BTW Sentana, a US General was a large owner in the "coffin factory" used during the Viet Nam war. Forget which!
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 11:34 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Tantor, When the world has people like you, some of us have the luxury of being the peaceniks. c.i.



We have finally found a point of agreement, Cicerone.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 11:38 am
blatham wrote:
Tantor, our entertaining Pollyana of Pulcritude, actually said the following:
Quote:
You need to bone up on the Israeli counter-terror operations, which are remarkably successful. There is an excellent article in this month's Vanity Fair that details the Israeli strategy of killing the terrorists. It works.


Boy, does it ever. Israel, the country totally free and safe for it's citizens.



Israel does not have violence because it actively kills terrorists but because there are many terrorists funded by foreign powers such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq. There would be an increase in terrorist attacks by a power of magnitude if they did not actively kill the people trying to kill them.

Your wrongful insistence on an absolute condition for success is much like saying that heart surgeons should give up because too many people die of heart disease.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 11:41 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Tantor, FYI, Not all Israelis believe as you do. They have peaceniks too! c.i.


And they're wrong. I notice that none of them have been elected to office. The Israelis have pretty much given up on trying to make peace with people who want war. We need not repeat their hard-learned lesson that it is futile to cut deals for promises of peace from terrorists but rather should learn from it and be completely implacable about taking the war to the terrorists until they stop.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 11:52 am
Tantor wrote:


Quote:
"Your wrongful insistence on an absolute condition for success is much like saying that heart surgeons should give up because too many people die of heart disease."


Tantor[/quote]

Tantor, Your analogy just doesn't work: Trying to compare medical care with the war on terror. Trying to compare apples and oranges may work for some, but not in this discussion. We are discussing the Israeli policies used to contain terrorist attacks on its citizens. The terrorist attacks on innocent Israelis continue, and more Israelis will die. It's not a matter of when the Israelis will win this war, but when will the next suicide bomber kill more Israelis? The war is not won, and as long as the Israeli's use Sharon's policy to kill more innocent Palestinians by collateral damage, there will be more killing of innocent Israelis. It's a lesson lost on the Zionists and people like you. c.i.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 01:12 pm
Tantor

Your arguments on Israel are...well... predictable entertainment at least. Earlier you indict someone (corectly) for an ad populem, then you toss one in here to shore up your 'War happy happy' stuff.
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 07:30 pm
Cicerone,

I disagree that the Israeli policy of killing terrorists does not work or that it leads to more terrorism. The fact is that when Israel made an effort to make peace with the likes of Arafat, the attacks continued. If Israel stop defending itself, the Arabs would gladly kill them, as they happily admit.

The core of the problem is that cynical nations like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq who don't really care what happens to the Palestinians are happy to use them as pawns in a religious war. They fund the terrorist operations. If that money dried up, there might be a chance for peace.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 07:32 pm
blatham wrote:
Tantor

Your arguments on Israel are...well... predictable entertainment at least. Earlier you indict someone (corectly) for an ad populem, then you toss one in here to shore up your 'War happy happy' stuff.


Well, Blatham, as long as I kept you entertained then my goal has been achieved.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 07:58 pm
tantor, I'm not so sure there is proof that Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq are all funding the terrorist's war. The last I heard about Saudi Arabia was a mistake on the donors part in not knowing that the charitable organization she gave money to was a terrorist organization front. As for Iraq, I'm sure the US and UK will reveal them to the world if that was happening. Iran is an unknown, simply because many now think that many Al Qaeda are now hiding there. Again, if the US and/or UK finds any connection, I'm sure Iran will not hear the end of it, and they may well become the next target. c.i.
0 Replies
 
Tantor
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 08:50 pm
Cicerone,

During the Israeli takeover of Jenin some months back the Israelis found documents listing the amounts the Saudis paid to the suicide bombers, helpfully listing the location of their attack on the same line as the amount. Of course, when the Saudis hold a telethon to raise money for the Palestinians and broadcast hatred of the Israelis while the cash on the tote board is totaled, it's not hard to figure out that some of that money is going to buy explosives.

You might also remember the shipment of arms on the Karinne B (sp?) that was intercepted about a year ago, sent from Iran to Arafat's people. That's part of the support Iran provides to keep the war going.

Of course, Saddam does not hide his support for the suicide bombers, paying their families each a bounty. I forget how much exactly it is, something like $25,000 I think. That's several years pay in Palestine.

So that is the proof that those countries fund the war, published on the front page of every paper in America.

Tantor
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Dec, 2002 09:14 pm
and those gunships the Israelies use to attack the palestinians come from where? the arab world supports the palestinians and we support the Israelies same/same. but of course we have the MORAl highgound so that makes it ok.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Dec, 2002 08:20 am
As any number of commentators have mentioned in any number of publications, the western world's support (particularly US support) of Israel has led to inconsistency in policy (eg some UN resolutions MUST be followed, but not others). Understandably, this is perceived in much of the Muslim world as injustice.

Traditional support of Israel seems to have the two elements of cultural identity and a purposeful strategy of stability in the middle east to help insure oil supplies. The educated Arab/Muslim world is clear on this too. God knows what our moral righteousness must sound like to those ears, but likely less convincing than to our own.

Israel, of course, is unique in the region in it's democratic system and it's liberal values. Given any sustained military attack on Israel from it's neighbors such that Israel's survival was in question, then I'd very possibly go there to help Israel in some capacity.

But that's not anything near the real situation. Israel has been acting as an expantionist state and the Palestinians have suffered an injustice of domination and a loss of their lands (I won't go into what the Hagana and Irgun perpetrated - justifiably - on the Brits, because I'm sick to death of this whole argument).

Leaving this whole conflict unhandled is surely bound to keep the radical Muslim world enraged and terrorism a reality for us and the Israelis both.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Dec, 2002 08:40 am
blatham wrote:
Given any sustained military attack on Israel from it's neighbors such that Israel's survival was in question, then I'd very possibly go there to help Israel in some capacity.


This is one of the problems with the whole Israeli issue. The country is so small that a "sustained" attack would be a matter of a few hours so they've built up their military to prevent that from happening.

If they scaled back their military to levels that would apease their Arab neighbors you'd have a situation where, when you headed over to support them, you'd find that Israel didn't exist by the time you got there. Israel's #1 military tactic in the event of an all out war HAS to be to take the offensive, seize land outside of the recognized Israeli borders and fight the war there. They don't have the elbow room within their own borders to wage any type of defensive war.

Sadat recognized this issue and agreed to have the UN monitor Gaza as a sort of "no man's land' to provide a sort of buffer. (I'm not suggesting that others should do this. Just highlighting one of many factors in the whole mid-east dynamic.)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Dec, 2002 09:16 am
fishin

Acknowledged. I am not at all unhappy with Israel's military strength, given the real threats that have existed for decades.

But I think the situation now, though surely complex as you say, is very much different. I think settlement (and population displacement) in occupied territories is not morally acceptable, nor is the not uncommon refusal to allow UN inspectors into occupied territories.

Visible and real change in just these two state policies would seem to be likely to go very far in creating a new situation more just in the eyes of the Arab peoples, and in mine too.
0 Replies
 
 

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