10
   

morbid view of Haiti

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 05:59 pm
@fbaezer,
Yes, I knew it was a nightmare before.

I guess countries generally seem a lot readier to spend billions on war and emergencies than on trying to build a place like Haiti.

0 Replies
 
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 06:02 pm
Joe Nation started a thread about the Pat Robertson comment here:

http://able2know.org/topic/140293-1

and I think the full story about "the pact" is included, unless it was on DiestTKo's thread that I didn't find.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 06:04 pm
@Green Witch,
Thanks, Green Witch.
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  3  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 06:28 pm
@fbaezer,
fbaezer wrote:

On the most recent picture I saw, there was a man atop the debris of what it's said to have been a supermarket, pointing his rifle to other people. Don't know if he was sent there by the owner or wants to hoard the goods below for his own profit.


Now I know.
His name is Jean Menard, policeman.
He's guarding the corpse of the supermarket, doesn't know how many people are trapped inside. He's not there to search for any survivors. His job is to keep the people gathered around from stealing a can of food or other "pillaging".
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 07:17 pm
the next person that mentions Robertson or his pact with the devil is immediately going on my ignore list. That scumbag is not worth the bandwidth it tales to type his name so why give him enough credibility to even mention him. I'm quite serious.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 07:36 pm
@fbaezer,
fbaezer wrote:


The ones I've seen doing the most are Mexico, Venezuela and the Dominican Republic neighbours. I imagine Brazil's help is on the way.
We have sent an envoy. Since there is no air-bridge, he's currently aboard a Hospital-Ship Mexico has sent, and expects to arrive on Monday (Tuesday for Oz).


Just out of curiosity what has the Bolivarian Republic of Hugo done? The reports I have seen suggest very little from them.
fbaezer
 
  4  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 07:54 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:



Just out of curiosity what has the Bolivarian Republic of Hugo done? The reports I have seen suggest very little from them.


On the very first day, 2 rescue teams and 12 tons of food and water.
Later on, Venezuela sent, according to their government, over 1 thousand tons of rice, powdered milk, lentils and other foodstuff ("enough to feed over 300,000 for several days" ) which I don't know if it has arrived or been distributed, plus their elite military rescue team .
Chávez is making a lot of fuzz about it and his "socialist commitment". Perhaps it's not making the news in the US.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 09:15 pm
@fbaezer,
I doubt that the 1000 tons has arrived - that's about 50 C-130 loads and the airport has been operational for only about 36 hours. Likely it is enroute by sea - no fault implied - that's the sensible way to send it.. The rescue teams and 12 tons could have arrived in a single aircraft. Commendable and substantial, but frankly, despite Chavez' "fuzz", it isn't a substantial fraction of what has come from many other sources, either together or individually.

Based on this, the reporting here has been quite accurate with respect to Venezuela.
fbaezer
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 09:39 pm
@georgeob1,
Your calculations are correct, george.
Just read that the big containers are arriving by sea.
And, yes, if we calculate how much is it in $$$$$, it shouldn't nearly reach eight digit figures: more likely in the range of $2.5/3.5 million.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 11:36 pm
Looters terrorise Haiti as aid arrives
Posted 3 hours 27 minutes ago
Updated 3 hours 6 minutes ago/ ABC news

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201001/r499193_2629725.jpg
Haitian police arrest looters (AFP: Olivier Laban-Mattei)

Looters carrying machetes have brought more terror to Haitians, who are in desperate need for food and water supplies amid the stench of dead bodies left rotting in the tropical sun.

Quote:

Wednesday's devastating earthquake all but ruined the capital Port-au-Prince, home to four million people, and US troops have poured in to deliver aid. .....

.............Anger and frustration about the lack of progress is mounting.

"As long as the people are hungry and thirsty, as long as we haven't fixed the problem of shelter, we run the risk of riots," said Brazilian defence minister Nelson Jobim after visiting the capital.

US soldiers numbering 10,000 have been deployed to the country and have taken control of the airport, clogged with tons of relief supplies.

The first mass distributions of aid seeking has now begun.

Haitian officials say at least 50,000 people have been killed and 1.5 million left homeless in the Caribbean nation, one of the poorest countries in the world, which has long witnessed violence and bloodshed.

"The bodies of more than 15,000 people have already been collected and buried," Haitian Prime Minister Jean-Max Bellerive said.

"We simply settled with picking up the dead who were in the main streets." ....

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/16/2793872.htm
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:27 am
@fbaezer,
Quote:
Your calculations are correct, george.
Just read that the big containers are arriving by sea.

Where will they unload?

Quote:
Tuesday's 7.0-magnitude earthquake sent a quarter-mile pier crumbling into the sea along with two of his trucks. The few workers who went into the water swam to safety, Thomas said, but the port remains shut down, and desperately needed aid cannot be unloaded quickly.

"Now we're just starving to death," he said, worried that the airport and smaller harbors cannot handle the necessary volume of relief supplies.

"That was the whole country right there," he added, pointing at two toppled cranes on the remains of the pier that stand out against the clear-blue sky.

Thomas owns Raymond and Sons Trucking, a fleet of 35 trucks that haul cargo from the port. The company employed about 50 employees, all of them now out of work.

"I'm out," Thomas said.

The port won't be back for a while. Roads have been split apart and buckled, fences have fallen over.

"Oh, forget it," Thomas said. "Forget it. It might take a year to rebuild it. Forget it."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/01/15/haiti.harbor/index.html?hpt=C1

Pics here:
http://forum.talknightlife.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9886&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 07:17 am
@hawkeye10,
This simply reflects the completeness of the destruction there, resulting from a very severe earthquake that occurred very near a dense urban center, that also happened to be the only major logistics and distribution center for a large island population. Unfortunately the people there need everything at the same time and there is very little on site substitution of means and methods available. This is certainly an unusual combination of events, and it doesn't necessarily reflect any unusual failure on the part of Haitien society (apart from inadequate building codes & standards). Indeed it should remind us all of the fragility of our urban centers in the face of large natural disasters.

It appears that the unfortunate Haitiens were also a victim of an unusual combination of events. Haiti is a poor country with limited resources: the construction methods (unreinforced masonry & concrete) that made them so vulnerable to this unusual earthquake perversely were also a low cost and effective remedy for the much more frequent and equally destructive hazard of tropical storms and hurricanes.

I took the time to read again some descriptions of the aftermath of the San Francisco (where I live) earthquake and fire of 1906. This was a somewhat stronger earthquake in a place that experienced them frequently - violent storms are rare here, but earthquakes are an ever present occurrence. Almost all of the city was then built of wood framed structures, from readily available and ample timber, which have the flexibility to very effectively withstand most earthquakes. Indeed, for the most part, San Francisco emerged from the 1906 quake mostly intact - during the first few hours. Perversely it was fires - from earthquake damage to early design gas distribution systems - that destroyed most of the city over the next two days. The destruction and chaos that resulted was comparable to what occurred in Haiti, though the death toll was much less owing mostly to the much lower population density. Moreover recovery was less challenging because of the large immediate surrounding area and natural means for movement and resupply.

This region experiences a large earthquake somewhere about every 12 or so years. Each one reveals yet another weakness in building codes and standards, despite the fact that they have been evolving for over a century. Even after many prior experiences, our 1989 earthquake collapsed about 3 miles of elevated urban roadway, killing about 25 people. Potentially worse, another 8 or so miles of elevated roads in the center of the city came close to collapse and were promptly taken down after the quake.

I guess my point is that we all live closer to such disasters than we often think. We should do all we can to help the unfortunate folks in Haiti in theirs.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:31 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Speaking of pacts with the devil ...:

Quote:
..White House spokesman Robert Gibbs rejected those comments at his daily press briefing...


Thanks - never followed comments by Robertson before, and am less and less inclined to follow those of Robert Gibbs. I do however know Haitian history and - even though he got his Napoleons wrong - assume Robertson was referring to this:
Quote:
The Haitian Revolution (1791-1804) is, as historian C.L.R. James affirms, "the only successful slave revolt in history."

Haiti was the first republic in modern history led by people of African descent. It went directly from being a French colony to governing itself.

Historians traditionally identify the catalyst to revolution as a particular Vodou ceremony in August 1791 performed at Bois Caïman by Dutty Boukman, a priest, born in Jamaica, and later sold by his British master to a French plantation owner.

http://kjaerleik.blogspot.com/2009/09/haitian-revolution-voodoo-and-erzulie.html
The Haitians are understandably very proud of that part of their history - as neither Gibbs nor Robertson seem to have noticed.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:38 pm
@dyslexia,
Sorry Dys - I wrote before reading your comment, I promise to avoid that mistake in the future Smile
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:39 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
The Haitians are understandably very proud of that part of their history


Haitians are consumed by their myths.. to include personal stories, group history, and voodoo..and are not fit to provide for themselves. For the most part we can do nothing for them until and unless they decide that they want better for themselves.

We can't have the next Somalia so close to our borders either, so we cant let Haiti continue to rot.

It is a problem with no clear solution.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 12:51 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Though the earthquake was a powerful one, its impact was multiplied many, many times by the weakness of civil society and the absence of rule of law in Haiti. As Roger Noriega has written, "You can literally see [the] dysfunction from space": Satellite photos of Hispaniola, the island split between Haiti and the Dominican Republic, show green forests on the Dominican side and bare, deforested hills on the Haitian side. Mudslides and collapsing houses were routine in Haiti, even before this disaster. Laws designed to prevent erosion, and building codes designed to prevent criminally shoddy construction, were ignored. The rickety slums of Port-au-Prince were constructed in ravines and on steep, unstable hills. When they collapsed, they collapsed completely.

So weak were Haiti's public institutions, literally and figuratively, that nothing is left of them, either. Parliament, churches, hospitals, and government offices no longer exist. Extraordinarily, the president has left the country. The archbishop is dead. The head of the U.N. mission is dead. There is a real possibility that violent gangs will emerge to take their place, to control food supplies, to loot what remains to be looted. There is a real possibility, within the coming days, of epidemics, mass starvation, and civil war.

http://www.slate.com/id/2241861/


it may be a choice between Somalia 2 or agreeing to be taken over by the american military. No good choices, only bad ones are left after failing to deal with Haiti for so many decades.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 01:00 pm
@High Seas,
the question Helen is, under the current situation what can and should be done for Haiti, I don't think it's helpful to go into the history, be it French or "USA favored son status of Papa Doc/ Baby Doc" what could be meaningful/helpful today that makes sense. Personally I think "occupation" by the USA or UN for any extedted period of time would be inane but I would support massive NGO aid that would include infrastructure/education/medical..
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 01:19 pm
@dyslexia,
Quote:
I would support massive NGO aid that would include infrastructure/education/medical


NGO's cant do the three things that are most needed to rebuild.... govern, privide security and provide law. You are wrong as usual Dys.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Feb, 2012 11:41 pm
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:

Yesterday I watched Gen Powell on the telly explaining how the USA must work closely in support oi the Haitian government to bring relief to the "people." The Haitian government is one of the very most corrupt govenments on the planet. I assume it will take US Militray action (gun-fire) to separate the Haitian government/police/militray from the impovished people on the street most in need.


Quote:
PORT-AU-PRINCE (Reuters) - Haitian Prime Minister Garry Conille resigned on Friday after just four months in office, plunging the country into political paralysis in the midst of rebuilding efforts two years after a devastating earthquake.
Conille submitted his resignation in a letter to President Michel Martelly, according to a statement by the president's office. There was no immediate word on a possible replacement.
Conille's decision to step down came during political infighting between the two leaders over earthquake reconstruction contracts, as well as a parliamentary investigation into dual citizenship of government ministers, which is illegal under Haitian law.


http://news.yahoo.com/haitis-prime-minister-resigns-four-months-030128910.html

Nothing ever changes with Haiti, all aid spent there might as well be dumped in a landfill for all the good it will do.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Aug, 2012 01:53 pm
a new hurricane just struck Haiti. Over 400,000 are still living in tents after the last one, and after hundreds of millions of dollars in charity has been spent to "help" these poor unfortunate people.

Haiti is lost cause, a money pit, a black hole of civilization. the best thing we could do now is to refuse to sent them any more money but to encourage the Haitians to abandon the island. Haitians almost always become better people AFTER they leave Haiti.
0 Replies
 
 

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