Is genuine altruism possible?

truth
Rufio, I usually react to someone's act of altruism or someone's cruelty in terms of the "beauty" or "ugliness" of the act. I rarely appreciate or depreciate an act on grounds that it has conformed to or violated a rule of a moral code. This is not to deny that my aesthetic reactions are conditioned by the moral code(s) of my society.

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rufio

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I don't care what you apply that statement to, it's still wrong.

Bull.

Even if Locke's altruism existed at one time it no longer exists in its original form as a "knowing" in anyone's mind. If no subject consciously feels a benefit there's no altruism.

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Does everything that happens need an observer? Was the world flat for all those years that we refused to believe it was round? Does everything whose existance only you know about cease to exist when you die? People who made history are dead - does that mean that the history no longer exists?

We don't know the nature of this existence and for all we know everything exists as "idea" only. It's no a novel concept.

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Knowing does not imply observing. If I had meant to say observering, I would have said observing.

Then what does "knowing" imply? Explain you self.

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The donors of the money would know they were giving a gift, and probably what they were giving it for. They would feel good about the giving. If they didn't feel good about the giving, their wouldn't give.

It's not altruism. If the donors feel good about it, reap some reward, it's not altruism in a strict sense of the word.

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if no one conciously knows they are benefitting, then it is altruism all the more, because the altruist will never get a reward other than a moral reawrd in themselves

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Yes. However if the altruist gets a reward then perhaps the act was motivated for selfish ends. I think we've covered this.

Loche,
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we definatly covered that, which is why i said if no one knos someone did something altrustic, its MORE altruistic, because tehre is no chance of anyone rewarding the altruist

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The altruist can feel self rewarded in that they did a good, noble thing. The altruist doesn't need feedback from anyone else to feel selfishly satisfied.

And if no one knows they are consciously benefiting where is the altruism?

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and if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound?

of course it does, just because no one knows an act of altruism was made, that doesnt mean it didnt happen.

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although i agree feeling good about doing something counts for not being altruism IF you think the definition of altruism is getting nothing in return, if you think its wanting or not excpeting nothingin return, then it does count as altruism

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truth
LOcke, we've already massacred that conundrum about the falling tree. Of course it does not make a sound if there is noone (with hearing capacity) to hear it. SOUND is not just the percussive effect of the tree hitting the ground or the waves of air disturbance issuing from that. It is ALSO the functioning ear-brain of some animal. Sound is the subjective effect of the air disturbance. Sounds are what we hear and sights are what we see.

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Loche

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and if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound?

of course it does,

No it doesn't make a sound. The sound waves or acoustic energy spread out from the epicenter of the crashed tree in complete silence. It is only when the sound waves come in contact with a working ear that it can be said that a sound has been created or heard.

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just because no one knows an act of altruism was made, that doesnt mean it didnt happen.

It doesn't mean it did happen neither. If no one knows, we're agnostic.

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although i agree feeling good about doing something counts for not being altruism IF you think the definition of altruism is getting nothing in return, if you think its wanting or not excpeting nothingin return, then it does count as altruism

If altruism is based on what individual people think then it is purely subjective.

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Sound:

1. Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, CAPABLE of being detected by human organs of hearing.
2. Transmitted vibrations of any frequency.

if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it does make a sound. it transmits vibration and at the vary least, bacterium in, on, or around the tree will sense those vibrations. sound waves travel for an infinite amount of time, bring a machine near teh forest sensitive enough ans once the sound waves travel back around the world and if you were able to sort out the different waves, you could then record those sound waves

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JL

I would say that every time you make a value judgement about something, you are basing it on your moral code.

"Of course it does not make a sound if there is noone (with hearing capacity) to hear it."

Of course it does. It moves air molecules, which creates sound. It's exactly the same thing that happens if there is an observer there to hear.

Twyvel

"Even if Locke’s altruism existed at one time it no longer exists in its original form as a "knowing" in anyone's mind."

Doesn't matter. It happened. That's a fact. Nothing can change facts, once they are facts.

"We don’t know the nature of this existence"

Just because you don't know, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

"Then what does “knowing” imply?"

Knowing. That's it implies. Believe me, if I'd wanted to imply something other than knowing, I would have said so.

Here you say, tywvel, that in order to be altruism, there has to be no reward of any kind for the giver - but someone must benefit. According to your definition, onlythe criminally insane can be altruistic, and only by accident.

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What objectively happens when the tree falls, however it is interpreted, is that molecules move. This does not change.

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truth
Thanks, Twyvel. I can't argue with Rufio any more. His/her positivism/objectivim and naive realism (that's a technical term, Rufio, not a criticism) is too deep-seated to shake loose.

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rufio

If nobody knows about X it doesn't exist as something known. Peroid.

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Knowing. That's it implies. Believe me, if I'd wanted to imply something other than knowing, I would have said so.

You're in a merry-go-round you don't know what you're talking about.

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Here you say, tywvel, that in order to be altruism, there has to be no reward of any kind for the giver - but someone must benefit. According to your definition, onlythe criminally insane can be altruistic, and only by accident.

The receiver benefits.

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rufio

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What objectively happens when the tree falls, however it is interpreted, is that molecules move. This does not change.

No it does not change, but you position on this issue does, yet you make it appear that that was your position all along.

I hear you JLNoboby, Smile

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twyvel wrote:

The receiver benefits.

So, in my above hypothetical, if Donor drops a $100 bill on the street and it is picked up by a homeless person, Donor's act is altruistic, but if the bill ends up in the garbage the act is not altruistic?

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twyvel, just cause no on is there to see it doesnt mean it didnt happen. just like if someone is there and sees it, that doesnt mean it DOES happen. "sound" is defined by any vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, CAPABLE of being detected by human organs of hearing. we already went over it. C-A-P-A-B-L-E. Meaning if a vibration with "frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz." now im not a scientist, so i dont know the exact vibration in hertz of a tree falling in a forest, but ive heard it before, humans are capable of hearing it, therefor it makes a sound. whether someone is there to hear it or not, it makes a sound.

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heres the link http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sound

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Is genuine altruism possible?

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