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At least seven killed in shooting at Fort Hood, Tex.

 
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 01:18 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
I'm tired of arguing with idiotic arguments.


Your own? Wink
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 01:21 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
The shooter was a Muslim --- coincidence?

Not a coincidence. Given details that are arising, he was claiming to be harassed specifically because he was a Muslim. Supporting this claim is the fact that a soldier was currently being disciplined for scratching his car with his keys and ripping off a bumper sticker on his car that read "Allah is love."

I'm serious. If this was a man who was being harassed on account of his Christianity, I think we'd see similar patterns. him being a Christian would be relevant, but not meaningful in terms of something like we-should-have-guessed-this-would-have-happened.

T
K
O
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 01:30 am
@Diest TKO,
he was harassed because he signed up for the Army, took the schooling and the money, but then did not want to do his job. It was reasonable for him to be harassed, as he is scum. His being a Muslim excuse is neither here nor there, if his religion was a problem then it was is duty to stay out of the Army. He was not drafted.

I am very rarely in favor of the death penalty, but it would be reasonable in this case.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 01:30 am
@aidan,
Quote:
I think his employers (the army) should have been more cognizant of the conflicting bind he was being placed in.


With the little I know of his situation (only through reading a number of press reports) I agree with you.
Especially (from less than definitive press reports, again) he'd experienced harassment from within his own organization for being a Muslim.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 01:55 am
@msolga,
If you insist
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 01:58 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Just responding to what you said, Finn.

I'm not insisting on anything.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 02:27 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

he was harassed because he signed up for the Army, took the schooling and the money, but then did not want to do his job.

Prove he didn't want to do his job. His family claims he was very happy to be serving and was very happy until he was relocated and harassment began.

hawkeye10 wrote:

It was reasonable for him to be harassed, as he is scum.

You can't do yourself any favors can you?

No, and the army was proceeding with discipline with at least one individual. They apparently disagree that his harassment was reasonable.

hawkeye10 wrote:

His being a Muslim excuse is neither here nor there, if his religion was a problem then it was is duty to stay out of the Army. He was not drafted.

His religion wasn't a problem until other military men harassed him... If they had a problems serving with Muslims and other religions in the army it was their duty to not join. They were not drafted. It was not their job to harass the man.

His being a Muslim is not an excuse for his actions nor will it be a adequate defense if he survives to go to trial.

I think his motive is pretty transparent: A premeditated crime of revenge.

T
K
O
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 02:58 am
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
Prove he didn't want to do his job. His family claims he was very happy to be serving and was very happy until he was relocated and harassment began


his family and others claim that he was trying to get out of deploying

Quote:
His religion wasn't a problem until other military men harassed him... If they had a problems serving with Muslims and other religions in the army it was their duty to not join. They were not drafted. It was not their job to harass the man


His religion was a problem for him because he claimed this as the reason why he should not be be made to fulfill his deployment orders. The reason why he was unstable was not the alleged harassment, but rather because the army told him that he was going to deploy whether he wanted to or not. He had an obligation which he signed up for, and the army was right to make him fulfill it. Now the military will hopefully give him the death penalty for his treasonous act.

aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 03:10 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
His religion was a problem for him because he claimed this as the reason why he should not be be made to fulfill his deployment orders. The reason why he was unstable was not the alleged harassment, but rather because the army told him that he was going to deploy whether he wanted to or not. He had an obligation which he signed up for, and the army was right to make him fulfill it.

No, obviously the army was not 'right'- because now dozens of innocent people are either killed or wounded.
It was within their rights - but it obviously was not the right decision to force this issue on what seems to have been a mentally ill and increasingly delusional person.

Again - I'm not blaming this on the army. I don't believe this 'problem' just arose in July when he was transferred to Ft. Hood, and started being harrassed. The initial reports I read said he had ongoing issues - and aren't the internet postings about suicide bombings he's alleged to have made from months before he was transferred to Ft. Hood?
I think you're right in saying that he probably used the army to get his education and then couldn't follow through with his duties.
A normal person, Muslim, Christian whatever would have resigned or said, 'I'm having revenge fantasies of killing people - I can't be deployed or fulfill my duties- I need help.'
I place the blame for what happened squarely on him - but I hope the army takes note.
Quote:
Now the military will hopefully give him the death penalty for his treasonous act.

Whatever they do - I hope the first and foremost thing they do is begin to pay attention when people are decompensating before their eyes- which is exactly what was happening over a period of months to this man that they continued to give great responsibility to:
Quote:
Decompensation is the functional deterioration of a previously working structure or system. Decompensation may occur due to fatigue, stress, illness, or old age. When a system is "compensated", it is able to function despite stressors or defects. Decompensation describes an inability to compensate for these deficiencies. It is a general term commonly used in medicine to describe a variety of situations.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 03:25 am
@aidan,
Quote:
Again - I'm not blaming this on the army. I don't believe this 'problem' just arose in July when he was transferred to Ft. Hood, and started being harrassed.


We don't know yet.....however my guess is that at long as he was at Reid and not in danger of deployment that he was mostly fine. It was only after being transferred, which he knew meant would mean that he would deployed sooner or latter, that the world was out to get him, in his mind. And as have many who know him have said, he set himself up to be confronted, he was vocal about his views that are almost universally considered to be anti-American.

Quote:
A normal person, Muslim, Christian whatever would have resigned or said, 'I'm having revenge fantasies of killing people - I can't be deployed or fulfill my duties- I need help.
We don't know for sure yet, but the indications are that he was not with enough honor to do this. He tried several methods to get out of the army, but telling the truth about his mental condition does not seem to be one method that he tried. I fully agree with you, though he was not eligible to resign. He had a service commitment to fulfill as a result of him taking the schooling at Army expense.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 04:32 am
aidan wrote:

David - if my son or daughter were killed in a traffic accident,
I'd have to accept it a very sad, but unavoidable risk that we all
take every time we get in a car or walk across lanes of traffic as a pedestrian.

If my son or daughter had safely returned from a tour or two
in Iraq and were killed by a ******* doctor that the army had continued
to employ despite his obvious mental issues
-
I'd have trouble viewing that as anything but tragic and absolutely pointless madness and idiocy.

That's the difference.

Because yeah - they'd still be dead - but I'd have to somehow try to make sense of how they died and why.
1. I 'm pretty sure that u do not wish to attribute this
to medical malpractice.

2. Human mental aberrations manifest themselves both thru
negligent traffic collisions and thru the malice that this Moslem displayed.
Incidentally, this is not limited to humans, but is seenin other species of life.

My point is that human error is among the unpredictable uncertainties of life,
the same as getting hit by lightning. Human errrors are part of nature.

Accordingly, I re-iterate the timeless dictum of Mayor Rudy Giuliani:
" who KNOWS Y crazy people do things? "





David
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 05:41 am
On Fox and Friends this morning, Raw Story points out, host Brian Kilmeade suggested, in light of the shootings at Fort Hood, that the military start doing special screenings of Muslim servicemen and women.

"Do you think it's time for the military to have special debriefings of Muslim Army officers, anybody enlisted? Because if I'm gonna be deployed in a foxhole, if I'm gonna be sitting in an outpost, I gotta know the guy next to me is not gonna wanna kill me," Kilmeade said.

Yee-haw. This is the kind of clearheaded thinking by redblooded Amedricans that is so sorely needed now. Finns of the world, unite!

Goddamn.

http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/11/fox-host-should-military-have-special-screenings-for-muslim-troops.php
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 07:17 am
@msolga,
AND he can't spell!
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 07:18 am
@Diest TKO,
The religious profiling thing has already come up, according to Snood on some other thread.

dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 07:39 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Well, the US is pretty good at mass shootings.

So are a number of other countries, but you guys are up there.

Sounds as though US citizenship is one of the many things that need to be considered in profiling likely mass shooters.

Here's just a few.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/17/usa.internationaleducationnews



It likely is very relevant that THIS shooter is Muslim, since he was being ordered to a war many Muslims see as anti-Muslim, AND he was apparently quite affected by anti-Muslim prejudice in the military.

It seems unlikely that he began as a Muslim militant, but he seems to have ended up there, IF current reporting is to be believed.

I hope that his journey, if that is what it was, is learned from.

A stand? Massacres suck. By anyone, anywhere.

Do you intend to religiously profile all previous massacres by US citizens?


Here's some more mass shootings.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

And some of civilians in war:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/RM1.MYLAI.HTM


War tends not to be good for civilians. Lots of countries seem to kill a lot of us.

This seems a little hysterical, but you may wish to consider it, even though they are not all Muslims:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-11-07/americas-mass-murder-addiction/


Here's some general mass murder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_murder

Not all Muslim again, surprisingly, at least to you.

Now....have we finished using the current dead and mutilated bodies as an ideological kindergarten, and considered grieving for them for the people they were, and striving to learn from their deaths?

Hmmm?
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 08:02 am
@dlowan,
Oh...and if we have someone talking of the wonders of suicide bombing and massacres, not sure if religious profiling comes into it.

If I had a client talking in such a way, especially if s/he had access to weapons, religion would not come into it.

I would have a duty to report and warn.

And I have done so.

About WASPS, as it happens....but I'd do it for Muslims too.
dlowan
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 08:02 am
@dlowan,
On THIS thread!!!!
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 08:20 am
It is well known in mental health circles that people contemplating suicide will often give their things away. In the case of the Fort Hood shooter, it would not have been unreasonable though for him to give away his household goods. You certainly can't use them in a war zone.

One thing though piques my curiosity...................the giving away of his Koran. I cannot imagine a religious person, going into battle, not taking his holy book with him, whether it is the Koran for a Muslim, or a Bible for a Christian.

This leads me to believe that the massacre might be a pre-planned act, and not a psychotic snap. And that scares the hell out of me.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 08:58 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Well, of course he is a nut job just as the young woman who straps dynamite around her waist and wades into an Iraqi bazzare.

Do you draw a psychological distinction between the two?

Yes, I do. One has gone nuts all on his own. The other is doing it under duress. The criminals that people call terrorists (and lend legitimacy to by declaring war against them) take people's kids, and then offer the parent a choice of strapping on a bomb herself, or the criminals strapping bombs onto the kids.

So, yeah. Kind of a big distinction.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 09:00 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Hhmmmnn.

Interesting.

Can there be a more idiotic charge than yours which asserts I am attempting to perpetuate religious persecution?

How so? Plain and simple DrewDad, how so?

A) You've been watching too much Glenn Beck.
B) You don't have the personality to be able to pull off his disingenuous act.
C) Are you about to start crying now?
0 Replies
 
 

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