At least seven killed in shooting at Fort Hood, Tex.

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Imagine your loved ones will die unless you slap someone.

Try this: imagine that your brutality gives your enemies more resolve and more recruits....

Why does the argument for torture always come down to imagining some fanciful "ticking bomb" scenario? This is the real world, not Dirty Harry or 24.

If the facts supported your position, you wouldn't need to lead in with "imagine".

The fact is, torture doesn't even work; it does not produce good intelligence. Torture only produces prisoners who will say anything to get the torture to stop.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Quote:

Try this: imagine that your brutality gives your enemies more resolve and more recruits....

So when the Vietnamese were torturing POW's there was a line around the corner to enlist ?

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If the facts supported your position, you wouldn't need to lead in with "imagine".

If people would lead with their intelligence then I wouldnt need them to think about what they would do.

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The fact is, torture doesn't even work; it does not produce good intelligence.

The fact is torture does work but you can not admit that because it is a flaw in your argument. What better trump card could you have then it doesnt work...but it does work.

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it does not produce good intelligence.

Producing good intelligence is about tailoring the situation to suit the prisoner. That may be torture, it may be a hot cup of coffee.

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Torture only produces prisoners who will say anything to get the torture to stop.

Incorrect. Another falacy spread by do-gooders who know everything. Torture can produce reliable information, once past that point it is useless. Many nations have employed tortutre for its own sake, a sort of "little dick revenge" scenario. It is this level of torture that produces outrage yet it has nothing to do with the science of psychology. In Iraq, many people were tortured who could not help with information. This is stupid. But to torture someone who knows very important information, if torture is deemed what will work for that person, is essential.

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This is the real world, not Dirty Harry or 24.

Correct. This is the real world, not the Brady Bunch.

3 Replies

@Ionus,

Quote:

So when the Vietnamese were torturing POW's there was a line around the corner to enlist ?

When the S Vietnamese were torturing POW's and throwing them out of helicopters it gave the Viet Cong more resolve and more recruits...yes...there's no doubt.

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
This is the real world, not Dirty Harry or 24.
Correct. This is the real world, not the Brady Bunch.

So if torture works how come we water-board someone 120 times? At what point did it work?

The Bush admin claimed that they got actionable intel from waterboarding. Later we found out that the most actionable intel came from non-violent means and that the intel we got from water-boarding wasn't useful.

Convince me that you wouldn't confess to the murder and rape of a child if you were tortured. Please. Convince me.

The truth is Skip, that torture's main historical use has not been to gain information, but rather as fear propaganda.

T
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1 Reply

@panzade,

Quote:

gave the Viet Cong more resolve and more recruits...

But not in America ? POW's were tortured but no-one cared ?

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@Diest TKO,

Quote:

The truth is Skip, that torture's main historical use has not been to gain information, but rather as fear propaganda.

Correct.

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So if torture works how come we water-board someone 120 times? At what point did it work?

Perhaps it would be better if you read what you were replying to....from the point of view of accuracy of reply if nothing else.

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
The truth is Skip, that torture's main historical use has not been to gain information, but rather as fear propaganda.
Correct.

So then you admit that torture's true utility is not in gathering information.

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
So if torture works how come we water-board someone 120 times? At what point did it work?
Perhaps it would be better if you read what you were replying to....from the point of view of accuracy of reply if nothing else.

You keep asserting that your view is from the "real world" and yet your view requires imaginary scenarios while mine is based on what real intelligence gathers rely on.

I'm not talking from the Brady Bunch, you're talking from 24. It's not me who is caught up in fiction here.

T
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1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

Quote:

So then you admit that torture's true utility is not in gathering information.

An admission !! WOW ! That sounds like you are winning.
Read what I agreed to : "main historical use has not been to gain information". Can you see a difference between an historical use and a true utility ? They are even spelt different.

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You keep asserting that your view is from the "real world" and yet your view requires imaginary scenarios while mine is based on what real intelligence gathers rely on.

Read back a couple of posts.

You dont like torture because you have been brainwashed. You want people to thing of you as a lovely person so you must support lovely things. If the next terrorist attack kills your loved ones we will see a true test of your faith. It is easy to put the lives of others on the line for your principles.

Quote:

I'm not talking from the Brady Bunch, you're talking from 24. It's not me who is caught up in fiction here.

Given your inability to read what is written, I suppose there is no point in my saying I have never watched a single episode of 24 ?

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
The fact is, torture doesn't even work; it does not produce good intelligence.
The fact is torture does work but you can not admit that because it is a flaw in your argument. What better trump card could you have then it doesnt work...but it does work.

What fantasy world do you live in? Every reputable source says that torture does.not.work.

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
it does not produce good intelligence.
Producing good intelligence is about tailoring the situation to suit the prisoner. That may be torture, it may be a hot cup of coffee.

Except that torture doesn't work. It didn't work for cops. I doesn't work for military organizations.

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
Torture only produces prisoners who will say anything to get the torture to stop.
Incorrect. Another falacy spread by do-gooders who know everything. Torture can produce reliable information, once past that point it is useless.

Bullshit.

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
This is the real world, not Dirty Harry or 24.
Correct. This is the real world, not the Brady Bunch.

What a putz you are....

2 Replies

@DrewDad,

Quote:

Bullshit......What a putz you are....

Ah, a true intellectual ! Did you have help with the spelling ? With that sort of temperament I think you would make a good torturer. Do you lose control a lot ? Do you hate people who are different ? Apply now...

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Another person brainwashed into being lovely...but what a thin veneer hides a dark soul. You are capable of torture...we just disagree on who.

2 Replies

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
So then you admit that torture's true utility is not in gathering information.
An admission !! WOW ! That sounds like you are winning.
Read what I agreed to : "main historical use has not been to gain information". Can you see a difference between an historical use and a true utility ? They are even spelt different.

So are you trying to say that torture is actually super great at gathering information and it's just coincidental that it has been used this way?

Unless you can start demonstrating how torture has been used effectively as a utility to gather reliable intel, it's track record remains poor.

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
You keep asserting that your view is from the "real world" and yet your view requires imaginary scenarios while mine is based on what real intelligence gathers rely on.
Read back a couple of posts.

You dont like torture because you have been brainwashed.

I don't like torture because it is an unreliable method at getting accurate intel and it's brutal nature creates a liability for us. I don't like torture because it is morally, ethically, and don't trivialize this part, legally wrong.

Ionus wrote:

You want people to thing of you as a lovely person so you must support lovely things.

Oh by the way, welcome to A2K. If you think all liberals are hippies holding flowers prepare to have your ass handed back to you on the daily. With this style of all-tough-no-facts debate you'll just be embarrassing yourself here.

Ionus wrote:

If the next terrorist attack kills your loved ones we will see a true test of your faith.

Educate me. Give me a number here.

How many people need to be in jeopardy in your ultra-bad-ass ticking bomb scenario for me to support torture?

1,000,000? If this, why not 999,999?

10,000? If this, why not 9,999?

100? If this why not 99?

1? If this why not just let the police use this tactic to prevent crimes? After all, it doesn't take a terrorist attack to put my family in jeopardy.

If what you claim is that my family being in danger makes me above the law, you are simply wrong.

Ionus wrote:

It is easy to put the lives of others on the line for your principles.

It is easy to not have principles, chet. having principles is NOT the easy road.

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
I'm not talking from the Brady Bunch, you're talking from 24. It's not me who is caught up in fiction here.
Given your inability to read what is written, I suppose there is no point in my saying I have never watched a single episode of 24 ?

You don't need to have seen an episode. The point is that your argument is the same bullshit rationale they use on the show to justify the main character killing and torturing and in general doing-whatever-it-takes but never ever having consequences, and always being praised as the hero in the end.

T
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1 Reply

@Ionus,

If you had a man in front of you who you suspected had information on an upcoming attack that would hurt or kill your family, would you torture him?

It seems the answer is yes from your posts.

But what if that wasn't enough? He won't talk. The bomb is ticking tough guy. Would you torture his children in front of him? Would you rape them? Would you execute them?

That bomb is ticking and there is nothing of principle that is important as long as it is...

What do you do? You cant just do nothing! The things you do won't matter if you get what you need! Everyone will treat you like a hero.

Think fast! Make a decision.

Tick Tick Tick
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2 Replies

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
Bullshit......What a putz you are....
Ah, a true intellectual ! Did you have help with the spelling ? With that sort of temperament I think you would make a good torturer. Do you lose control a lot ? Do you hate people who are different ? Apply now...

LOL. A true putz, of the trollish type who seeks to rile up his opponent and then claim to be oh-so-rational.

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Another person brainwashed into being lovely...but what a thin veneer hides a dark soul. You are capable of torture...we just disagree on who.

Nietzsche said it before you, and rather better phrased, but neither of you is correct.

0 Replies

@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

If you had a man in front of you who you suspected had information on an upcoming attack that would hurt or kill your family, would you torture him?

It seems the answer is yes from your posts.

Well, don't forget that he's living his life in fear, and wants everyone else to do the same....

2 Replies

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:

If you had a man in front of you who you suspected had information on an upcoming attack that would hurt or kill your family, would you torture him?

It seems the answer is yes from your posts.

Well, don't forget that he's living his life in fear, and wants everyone else to do the same....

I think he wants others to do the torture part for him too.

T
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1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

Diest TKO wrote:

I think he wants others to do the torture part for him too.

Well of course he does. He's not a sadist; he just wants those nasty terrorist tortured.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Quote:

Well, don't forget that he's living his life in fear, and wants everyone else to do the same....

So your plan is to tell each other what my viewpoint is....clever !

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Quote:

LOL. A true putz, of the trollish type who seeks to rile up his opponent and then claim to be oh-so-rational.

Here we have a person who is not responsible for his actions... if he loses control it is my fault.

0 Replies

At least seven killed in shooting at Fort Hood, Tex.

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