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Philadelphia Transit Union Strike

 
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 03:46 pm
@Ceili,
Stop being obtuse.

What if they asked for a 5% annual raise? 7%? 10%?

Where is your cap?

Should it be possible for a bus driver to make $100k?
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 03:47 pm
@maporsche,
You stop being obtuse, I answered your question.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 03:48 pm
@Ceili,
No you didn't. I didn't ask what the Union's cap was. I asked what your cap was?

What is the most that YOU'd be willing to pay a bus driver if you were the boss?
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 03:52 pm
A million if it would get you to shut up.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 03:57 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:

A million if it would get you to shut up.


Sorry if I upset you. I thought we were having an interesting and productive discussion. Otherwise I wouldn't have responded to your posts for most of the day.

I'm not forcing you to participate, you can stop at any time, but I wish you wouldn't.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 04:02 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:

You feel you're worth more then others and if you were boss of the world, you would deny others the opportunity to make a good wage.


I do need to point out that this is completely false.

I would NEVER deny someone the opportunity to make whatever wage they wanted. Someone should be able to go to school, apply for jobs, be on equal ground regardless of race/gender, equal pay for equal work, etc.

But that does NOT mean that the janitor of a building should make 50k/year.

It DOES mean that the janitor should have access to the same education system, public assistance, libraries, and career counsling services that EVERYONE has access to. He should not be limited beyond his own personal ambitions and desires.

Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 04:48 pm
@maporsche,
So tell me then, how much would you pay a janitor, a bus driver?
How much do you as a nurse think you should earn?
If you don't value their services, fine. My mom is an RN. She made less per hour than Safeway stock boys at one point. I didn't begrudge them their salary, I just thought she should be paid more.
Safeway is a private company. I can't tell them what or what not to pay their employees, but we all have the right to complain when it's on the public dime.
On a sliding scale, what is peoples time worth. Are you saying bus drivers are uneducated? Thus not worthy? I know plenty who have degrees and chose not to pursue their studies. That was their choice. Many come as a second career, many are ex services or police. I actually trained an ex-Indian general... believe it or not. The have extremely tough jobs. If you were the boss you'd know that.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 04:58 pm
@Ceili,
I would pay a janitor whatever price I needed to, to find one that was able to do the job that I required them to do in the manner I needed it done in. If that meant that I needed to pay a janitor $8/hour then that it what I would pay the janitor. If I was not able to find any employees that met the standard I was trying to meet when I was offering $8/hour then I would offer $9/hour and see if that wage allowed me to find an employee who would do the job I needed done. If $9 was too low, I'd offer $10. I'd follow this pattern until I was able to find an employee that would be happy to do the job I needed to have done and met the standard of employee that I wanted to work for me.

Same logic for a bus driver. I'd pay them whatever I needed to pay them to do the job I needed done as long as I could find employees to do the job at the quality I need it done at. I'm CERTAIN that I could find drivers that would do the job at the current level of quality that bus drivers are at now, for less than what the current bus drivers are making. This would allow me to keep costs down, and expand my business and hire more bus drivers (albeit at the reduced wage).

I believe that wages should be determined by those who are looking to do the jobs. I'm in favor of a minimum wage, and I do think our current one in the USA is too low (I think it's $7 or something like that, I'd rather see it closer to $10) and I am also in favor of universal healthcare so don't think I'm some proponant of slave labor.

I think that any wage above a baseline standard of living should be determined by the free market. Unions upset that free market and drive would be employees out of competition for jobs, and muscle businesses into paying higher wages than are often required. Which stifles productivitity, and reduces efficiency.
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 05:07 pm
At $10, you are paying people a yearly salary of $21,000.
I defy you to raise a family, buy a home, a car, groceries, pay bills, save for the future, your kids education, health care, dental care...
Do you really want to bankrupt society just so you can pay people a pathetic wage?
This is walmartization. On that wage, families must depend on the public dollar. How does that payoff in the end?
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 05:08 pm
@maporsche,
I'll add that if a janitor or a bus driver want to make more than the job offers, they are FREE to find another job that will pay them more money.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 05:10 pm
@Ceili,
I've already said that I think health/dental care should be a UHC system. I wish you'd read my posts more thouroughly.

And no, I don't expect people to raise a family on that income. I expect people to learn skills and find a better job that will allow them to make more money.

Janitors should not be making $50k/year, and neither should bus drivers (based on true market wages).
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 05:22 pm
@Ceili,
I have to take exception to this.
I am a truck driver, and I make approx $25, 000 a year.
I own my home, I own 2 vehicles (both of them less then 5 years old), and have no problem paying my bills or providing for my family.

For you to assume that people cant do it on that wage is to show a woeful ignorance of the facts.
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 05:22 pm
So, If I get this right... Bus companies should hire anyone to fill the seat, they shouldn't be paid well and thus people who dare ride a bus should beware, there's an idiot behind the wheel. Not a professional driver, just some guy in between better, more intelligent jobs.
By that thinking, why pay for mechanics with tickets, anybody can do a lube job. How about bankers and stock brokers? They blew up the American economy.
Why does a cop need an education or training, anyone can handle a gun. Truckers should be working for peanuts too. If they ain't smart enough to get a good high falutin' job, they should be reduced to merely getting by. The work they do isn't worth it the big bucks. Unless, you've spent time with your nose in a book, a person daren't ask for more money, they didn't do their homework.
Bad student, bad life. We shouldn't rise above our station.
How about actors or athletes, not all them are brilliant, they don't really do anything worthwhile, or meaningful.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 05:31 pm
@Ceili,
Look, I'm enjoying the conversation, but please will you actually read and respond to what I write (if you're going to bother in the first place).

Here is what I said.

Quote:
I'd pay them whatever I needed to pay them to do the job I needed done as long as I could find employees to do the job at the quality I need it done at.


See the part I bolded, "at the QUALITY I need it done at." This means that NO, I would not hire anyone to fill a seat. Nor would I hire people who would put my passengers or business in danger. Nor would I hire people who would be so rude that I'd end up with fewer customers.

I am enjoying this conversation, but I would appreciate it if we could follow the same conversation.
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 05:32 pm
@mysteryman,
Do you live in a big city like Chicago, NY or Philly?
Bus drivers must live fairly close to where they work.
Does your wife work? Does she bring in some cash?
I live in a city where the average house is over $600,000. Could you afford to buy a house here on your wage? Not to mention all the other bills?
We have a problem in this city, our city workers cannot afford to live in Vancouver. They earn a wage here, but pay taxes to another municipality/area. People move to the suburbs because they can`t afford to live in the city. The cities lose out on tax dollars etc., then services are cut, infrastructure is affected. It`s a vicious circle.
This happens in the States too.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 05:34 pm
@Ceili,
I remember you saying on another thread that you would like people to actually respond to what you're saying and not ignore your posts.

I'm trying to do that and be very respectful, but I do not appreciate the misrepresentation of my posts. I'm making every effort to not misrepresent yours, and to also answer you questions as clearly as I possibly can.
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 05:37 pm
I've posted plenty of things you've ignored.

Quote:
I'd pay them whatever I needed to pay them to do the job I needed done as long as I could find employees to do the job at the quality I need it done at.

This is where you'd get yourself into trouble, The quality you need may not be up to your local government's standard, not to mention the courts. Americans have made a name for themselves suing anything that moves. If your company hired to your standards, you might find yourself in front of a judge.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 05:46 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:

I've posted plenty of things you've ignored.


Of course. I can't respond to every post. But I'd wager you've had more discussion with me today than anyone else here. At least show my posts the same level of respect I've shown yours.

Quote:
Quote:

I'd pay them whatever I needed to pay them to do the job I needed done as long as I could find employees to do the job at the quality I need it done at.


This is where you'd get yourself into trouble, The quality you need may not be up to your local government's standard, not to mention the courts. Americans have made a name for themselves suing anything that moves. If your company hired to your standards, you might find yourself in front of a judge.


I don't think you understand what I've posted. When I said 'the quality I need' I was speaking as if I was the business owner (please refer back to the original post). As a business owner, I'd be responsible for meeting the regualations given by the government and any and all legal obligations. As a business owner, I'd do everything possible to make sure that met ALL of my obligations to my customers and the rulemakers.

I am CERTAIN that the city of Philadelphia can find employees that meet ALL of the standards of the CURRENT employees, at a lower wage. If I were the manager of this process, I'd make every effort to find employees who would meet ALL of these standards, at the lowest wage possible. THEN, I'd be able to expand my services to make even more money and hire even more people.

The Union is making this impossible, and likely reducing the speed that mass transit is adopted and expanded, which I have a HUGE problem with.
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 06:11 pm
I've already explained that on average, only 30% of a transit systems budget goes to wages, just over half of that is paid to drivers. The rest is for mechanics, admin, management,planners, cleaners, security, computer techs, designers, map makers, schedulers etc.
The rest of the budget goes to infrastructure - bus stop, signs, benches, shelters, pavement, repairs, computers, garages,
Buses, fuel, tires, paper - ie transfers, passes, schedules, advertising
The list is endless? How much do you think you'd save just cutting the driver's wages? Improve service, do you have any idea how much it costs to put a bus on the road for an hour? Do you have any idea how much adding a new route cost?
When you introduce more service, say late night service. You have to petition people in neighbourhoods, they don't want a loud diesel bus going past their house at 1:00am. New routes require feasibility studies - where is service lacking, where is it overkill, will the buses make it through the area safely, how many new stops, which must be built in front of a persons home or business (they generally don't like it, sometime it involves going to court). You need a team to come out, pour concrete, benches and shelters, install signage, There are maps to be drawn, schedules to be made, more buses bought, more drivers to be hired and trained.
There is so much involved in getting anything done. It can take months just to get one stop, never mind a new route or extra hours.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 06:18 pm
@Ceili,
I don't think that you are suggesting that because something may be difficult that we should just do nothing, are you?

Even if there were only a 1% cost reduction (I'm sure it would be higher), it would still be a positive impact would it not?
 

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