Stars and Bars; How Long, O Lord?

You say that like it's a bad thing.

She's a mighty fine looking gal.

The confederate flag screams racism up here in Canada too. It's always slapped on the back of a pick-up, with a gun rack and pit bull sliding around the back. Stereotypical I know, but true none the less.

It's not a matter of granting power to a "hater", it is a matter of society coming to accept a certain term, word or symbol means something. Gay used to imply a unique condition of levity. "We'll all be gay when Johnny comes marching home." Now it means something different and you can complain about that all you want, but it doesn't change the fact. If the US flag is used solely as a symbol of hate for fifty years, then any other meaning it once held will be destroyed no matter how you feel about it, so guard it carefully if you value it. Those Southern gentlemen who misused their own flag must not have valued it very much.

well said. Its not an indictment of the symbol UNTIL those who have evil intent adopt the symbol .

So true

Those Southern gentlemen who misused their own flag must not have valued it very much.
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Those southern gentlemen even at the highest of KKK power was still a small percent of the total population of the southern states.

In any case I refused to grant farmerman or you or any combination the right to tell me how I must consider a word or a flag or any other symbol for the matter.

I would love to see who had granted farmerman a license to define symbols for the rest of us.

When I see that flag in question I see Lee pulling out the few thousands half dead remaining men of his once proud Army of Northern Virginia from defending Richmond and being follow by Grant armies in overwhelming force just before his surrounded.

Or the battle of the wilderness where Grant loss more men then Lee started with and yet kept feeding men into that hell forcing Lee to give ground. Wounded men on both sides being slowly burn to death from the fires started from the fighting.

Or Lee bringing the war north two times or......................

Sorry gentlemen the civil war was an event that by far out shadow any other conflict in our history and it is far beyond members of the KKK or even PC right thinking persons to dishonor.

Lee and his band of redneck crackers defended an indefensable cause. They are responsible for the waste of humanity that was the US Civil War.

Lee and his band of redneck crackers defended an indefensable cause. They are responsible for the waste of humanity that was the US Civil War.
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Lee a redneck cracker? You do not know one damn thing about history or about Lee.

The ST ANdrews cross flag was one of aboput nine different ANV battle flags, (so which one should you honor as representative of the "Confederacy"). I believe that several other generals had their own battle flags (Braxton Bragg comes to mind). I know Joe Johnston wanted to have the ST ANdrews Cross adopted universally so he and Beuregard tried to push that issue only to be turned down .
You are the only one who is confusing the battle flag of ANV (actually it was flag no 3 of the ANV) with the entire Confederacy,As Edgar stated before , it WAS the Stars and Bars that were being flown not the redneck flag.

__________WHY is the General of the DUkes of HAzard flying an ANV battle flag on its roof---simple because the first of the stock car tracks , used the ANV flag as its track symbol.

NONE of this maneuvering hides the fact that the battle flag has been adopted by racist and white supremacist groups (Of course they also use the US flag but if you ever see pix of the Klan marching, they will have the US flag and the Battle flag side by side).
I think its a racist symbol, BILL seems to want to assert (by virtue of tangential references to some civil war snippets) that one of the the ANV battle flags is to be honored. I wonder whether Bill would honor STand WAttes battle colors or Braggs flag?

These men controlled the government of every Southern state. Each state legislature passed laws changing their state flags to include the battle flag as a statement against segregation. It wasn't just the KKK. But that really doesn't matter. Large swaths of the population of the US and Canada consider flying the battle flag a declaration of racism. If you choose to fly it, I respect your right to do so, but you are intentionally taking an action that others will perceive as your support for racism. It really doesn't matter if you don't mean that; you know how it will be perceived and you are ok with that perception. Likewise, if you see someone flying the battle flag, you can refuse to assume they are racist, even if you know there is a likelihood that they are.

I'm sure the British said the same thing about those rebellious colonials.

Good words, sir.

Interesting thread. Let me make one of my inimitable analogies. In some big cities with a non-Christian community of some size, the Christmas season has sales clerks at stores telling customers, "Happy Holidays." If one goes into the more rural areas of the country, one is more likely to hear, "Merry Christmas." Now, should the people in rural America, where most people are Christian, change their greeting because it can offend a few non-Christians that may be passing through, or may live in a nearby college town?

So, without asking any of those that display the Confederate flag, why they display it, I can only believe that those that get offended by the Confederate flag being displayed is similar to those that do not celebrate Christmas, and have some sensitivities about those that greet them with a "Merry Christmas."

I say this since slavery ended 145 years ago, and the Jim Crow segregated south ended over 40 years ago, so I would like to read the results of a survey of reasons why the Confederate flag is displayed (by those that display it), and the results of a survey of reasons why some Americans greet everyone with, "Merry Christmas" when not everyone is a Christian these days. And, since it is only 60 years after an anti-Semitic (Christian) Europe was helpful in the Nazis efforts to exerminate Jews, there could be a real reason for Jews to find the endless December ritual of "Merry Christmas" to be disquieting. And, I do not believe that those that say, "Merry Christmas" have any prejudice to any non-Christian. It is just an enjoyment in their religious holiday, in my opinion. By the way, 60 years is less that 145, so let us notice how many people get upset if told that they should say "Happy Holidays" in December.

Regardless of whether my analogy made sense to anyone, I would like a statistic as to the percentage of Confederate flag displayers that specify racism as a primary reason for displaying the Confederate flag. Also a statistic as to the percentage of Christians that give the December greeting of "Merry Christmas" because of anti-non-Christian feelings. I would guess we would have a very small percentage in both categories, or zero percent.

Not that some taking a survey might lie, but it still would show that "Merry Christmas" is not anti-non-Christians, and the Confederate flag is not displayed for mainly racist reasons.

Perhaps, there is some desire by some to eliminate the memory of the Confederacy? Sort of like the laws against Nazi memorabilia in Germany. The difference is, in my opinion, is that the Confederacy reflected the culmination of a political divide in this country that went back a hundred years or more, and Nazi Germany reflected a short-lived detour from German history.

So, I personally only enjoy seeing the American flag, but if someone wanted to display the Confederate flag, I do not think I have an ethical reason to comment on his or her personal reasons; I would in effect, mind my own business, since the Confederacy is part of some families' personal history in the U.S., and far be it for me to comment on a family's feelings about their life in the U.S. through generations, considering my family came here after all the hard work was done (late nineteenth century).

P.S. Does the Texas Lone Star flag also come with a history of not wanting to join with Mexico, since Mexico wanted Texas to be free of slavery? Do we hear of the Lone Star flag having any controversy?

It has been conceded by one and all that a person has the right to display a Confederate flag on personal property. Overwhelmingly, people know it is a symbol of hatred and racism. Where you take it from there is up to you.

it is a symbol of southern pride, exactly what they are proud of is not known till you talk to them.

Your assumptions run into immediate problems with all of the reports that the south is the least racist part of the country

That's funny.

You can not used logic or common sense when the PC people are out in full cry and anyone who would dare to disagree with them is evil and racist and walking in the darkness.

Farmerman and his like are so sure that they know the truth concerning a subject such as the evil battle flag that so many brave men die under that no amount of reason will turn their head or matter to them.

Thats cause youre not talking reason. Everyone has pretty miuch stated that the ANV battle flag (no 3) has been coopted by reconstruction era politics and "gangs". Youre desire to imbue some sort of sainthood onto the Civil WAr is laughable. The entire war was an example of failed familial relations and a series of cynical politicians who wished to satisfy their constituency by retaining out dated institutions that preyed on humanity.

THE ANV battle flag is a teeny segment of symbology that has been adopted by the night riders and the border ruffians who maintained strife for many years and gave rise to much of the lore of the Wild WEst. The ANV battle flag, as a national symbol, isnt under debate because IT NEVER WAS FULLY ADOPTED as such. It was, however, adopted by several organizations including outlaw biker gangs of the late 20th century.

The free association of a historical symbol as the ANV flag with a terror organization , a radical racists movement,and criminal enterprises is hardly a matter of secrecy (unless youve had your head tucked into a more convenient orifice these many years).
What weve got today is a symbol that is easily adopted by the redneck contingency to "Piss off" the black neighbor or put some fear into the hearts of some new Asian neighbors.
I had lived in a mobile home park years ago when I was newly married and going to grad school. It was convenient and the economics allowed us to save our meager salaries as grad students. I was constantly in a state of amazement at the actual numbers of real down home, NASCAR lovin racists lived in the park.The only thing in common was that each and every son of them was flying the banner version of the ANV no 3. They had a 3X5 version of the square battle flag.

You can try to divert the facts of today into some phony nostalgia for "our bnrave civil war brothers bullshit" all you wish, it doesnt change the fact that the ANV flag has been adopted by racist and criminal white supremacy organizations.

Im as big a civil war buff as anyone and have spent my wasted days retracing the idiocy that was Gettysburg or visiting Manassas . I even took a short vacation to Lookout Mountain , and even diverted a busines trip to visit ANderson SC to see the remnants of SHermans rape of the SOuth in remaining building hulks. ALL this was in years past. That doesnt imbue me (or you ) with any special insight into what was the original makeup of the Confederacy v what is todays reality.
I enjoy Civil War history and I think Ive been sensitized to the lessons that it tshould be teaching us rather than some wacky sentimentalism and false attributions .

"We must learn from the mistakes of history or be doomed to repeat them," wasnt that Durant who said that.

I admire your respewctful "hall monitor" attitude and your patience Edgar . However, Im still using a "shimmy SHad" with a small Ti spoon and Im workin the shallow weed beds with a series of short casts. Thats where the large mouths lay.