What qualifies a man to talk about an issue like feminism?

Just saw someone added the tag "womb envy." LOL.

That sounds like a topic by itself.
K
O

@spendius,

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UCFMTB. (The Union of Calvinist Faggot Dealers and Torch Bearers).

Would that be a 'faggot' that is made out of all the butcher's left over meat scraps or a bundle of sticks?

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You have to take into account the society in which these young women live. If they were valued more they might not have that many regrets. I know and have known a few dozen I suppose and they seem quite happy and contented in the main. Most grandparents dote on their young daughters kids.

Valued? I'm talking more about the practical realities spendius. When you're sixteen or seventeen and all the other girls are getting ready to go to the prom and you're faced with pacing the floor with a colicy baby or when all the girls get together to go out shopping and you don't have any money because you have to buy diapers (ooh sorry, nappies Laughing

)...

You know I value them more than thinking that's what most of them would choose (in America at least). Because I am aware that in England - they do get these flats and with each kid a bigger one with another bedroom - until apparently they move up and into a house (as you say) - but that's not how it works in America - there's not really that big of a pay off.

And once they get pregnant - there's really no easy way out that's not going to cost them something for the rest of their lives. They can have the baby and struggle with the repercussions of that or have an abortion and struggle with the repercussions of that or place the baby for adoption and struggle with the repercussions of that- for the rest of their lives.

I think it's better off all the way around if they wait until they're ready to deal with the physical and emotional consequences that girl's do experience when they have sex.

Because they are different for women than for men.

But I have to say, I'm not aware of any of this continuing judgment around losing one's virginity. Especially not now - it seems that now people think you're weird if you HAVEN'T lost your virginity by the time you're sixteen or seventeen. I think kids are more likely to be taunted for NOT ever having had sex than they are for having had sex.
And if you hit 21 or 22 and haven't done it - and people know - I think there's quite a lot of ridicule going on.

What college campus is it where if a girl loses her virginity she will be stigmatized?

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@Diest TKO,

I'd be envious if I didn't have a womb....I'd much rather have a womb than a penis! Laughing

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@Diest TKO,

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You wouldn't be suggesting that at after age 18 the negative stereotypes cease to exist or that they could not effect an individual are you? Reducing the topic of virginity to a teen issue is a bad idea IMO.

In High School you are more than likely to be coming of age, where you face your first real challenges; sexuality becomes an enormous part of the mix, along with other challenges, such as negotioating parents, your growing responsibilities and the question of what to do with your life. That first awakening of sexuality can be powerful stuff, and you're going to start to wonder, to make inquiries, to talk about it, either with your friends or, if you're lucky, your parents.

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The idea that virginity is only important to the super religious is outright false. The religious certainly are the most vocal about their reasons to abstain, but their reasoning is but only one reasoning to choose either way.

Not outright false, only highly stressed by the religious. Sure, for the non-religious who ponder the meaning of losing their virginity, the weight of the matter still seems prevalent, however, the virgin not facing a moral dilemma tends to come to a decision on their own, not by the institution.

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And the college level...
And the workplace level...
And the social level...
And in politics...
And in film...
And in music...

Let's leave it to the 15-18 yr olds to parse out these issues on their own? I don' think so. Moral subjugation based on gender occurs on every level of society.

True, but again, in HS it's the strongest, mostly because you have less options. As an adult, I make my own money, so I can do more, have more freedom. So when I meet a man and he's pulling some of what you mention, I can walk away-- I can go on a trip, go to the library, I have my own car, no one is telling me what to do and how to do in my own time, and as an adult I have had accumulated experiences that give me a chance to have an strong inner life.

Here's a quote from Boxcar Bertha:

"When a woman gets the blues, she hangs her head and cries,
When a man gets the blues, he hops a freight and rides..."

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It's not that you SHOULD have lost your virginity to some pimply-faced peer braggart, but you took your choice and made the general statement that others should do as you. You aren't advocating that people choose for themselves, you're perpetuating the same negative stereotypes. Feminism is not about being promiscuous or nun like, but having choices. You demonize choice by implying that you did what a self-respecting girls do.

Now, now, TKO, my statement of "any self-respecting girl" may be flip, but I am not perpetuating a negative stereotype. It seems you're turning the table on me for exercising my choice and for being strong in that choice. I'd say you're flailing here for your lack of a better argument.

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@Diest TKO,

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Nobody but you are accountable for what you say. I suggest you learn what you're saying before you say it. Your post is littered with chauvinistic language.

Nobody but you are accountable for what you say. I suggest you learn what you're saying before you say it. Your post is littered with exploititive language the chauvinism of which is almost hidden under a thick layer of mealy-mouthed cliches and assertions that you understand these issues which have plagued mankind throughout history and are thus eminently qualified to hold forth on them despite the obvious evidence that your assimilation of the content of knowledge is at best average.

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You ramble about how men and women are "designed," and wow, big coincidence, men are designed to be all useful and utilitarian, while women are good at and designed to do things that are socially looked down (upon).

I merely report the scientific facts. That you categorise that as rambling is of no consequence apart from it being an aspect of the evidence I mentioned.

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For instance, you assert that men are patient. Because you say so I guess.

I did not assert that men are patient. I am well aware that there are men who satisfy the category on nothing but crude biological evidence and they are just as impatient as women.

You are far too fond of the intemperate assertion TK and of careless reading of what is said to you. I realise that those techniques are of service to your quite attenuated subjectivity but you really ought to be appraised by now that they make not the slightest difference to me nor to the discussion.

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Wellness programs on most campuses are funded with student fees. They don't make profit. The number of individuals that come in the door doesn't get them more money or bonuses or anything. The motivation for the people who do this is that they help provide an educational service and help people get access to what they are seeking.

Not another bloody non-profit organisation! It never ceases to amaze me how, in the land that has prospered from the worship of profit, the expression "non-profit" stands for a outward display of virtue and self-sacrifice and is seen to grant integrity to the speeches of those who so casually employ it. Profit is not confined to cash. One might be more faithful to the tenets of science if one had the opportunity to investigate the details of your position and the opportunities it might afford.

What proportion of the students avail themselves of your service and to what extent is the education you claim to provide in any way superior to that to be had from other people or other sources? Would you claim a superior knowledge in regard to personal problems to that of a matriarchal grandmother in an extended family?

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@ossobuco,

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What do I have to do to get your attention, tko, re your new york thread?

Butter him up with base flattery osso. TK responds to that like a hungry monkey does to a bunch of bananas.

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@aidan,

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Valued? I'm talking more about the practical realities spendius. When you're sixteen or seventeen and all the other girls are getting ready to go to the prom and you're faced with pacing the floor with a colicy baby or when all the girls get together to go out shopping and you don't have any money because you have to buy diapers (ooh sorry, nappies )...

I think you might be presuming that what is satisfying to you is equally satisfying to other young ladies. And why does this fantasy baby have colic? It is much more likely to be smiling and gurgling in response to its mother's love and being an endless source of fascination to her as she observes its growth and takes pride in its progress.

Just before the premature end of his eventful life Mr Auberon Waugh came to the conclusion, after some prompting, that young single mothers were the salt of the earth. And well he might have done. Norman Mailer said some harsh things about planned parenthood.

There are plenty of opportunities for disappointment to be had at proms and out shopping with the girls. And any benefits are transient at best.

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And if you hit 21 or 22 and haven't done it - and people know - I think there's quite a lot of ridicule going on.

All the more reason to ridicule the ridiculers then.

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@aidan,

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I'd be envious if I didn't have a womb....I'd much rather have a womb than a penis!

Put like that I would have to disagree but I wouldn't mind trying out having a pussy.

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@BillRM,

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And how many people do you think is now walking around because the old condoms broke my freind?

That's not the point, the point is, you're putting all the responsibility of not getting pregnant on the female. Sure, condoms break, but men are equally responsible if the woman gets knocked up.

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@Green Witch,

Green Witch wrote:

Feminism is a human issue. As a human you are qualified to talk about it.

Annoyed I found this thread late.
I really can't read all ten pages, but I thought Green Witch summed the issue up in it's most concise form.
Feminism is an inequality issue not just a female issue.

I personally like it when men talk about feminism. Well, if they're intelligent to do it justice, which of course you are TKO.
If I look through my college library, the majority of feminist writings are by women.
The longer feminism appears to be only a female issue or only one that women care about or can talk about, then the harder it will be for us to achieve complete equality.

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@The Pentacle Queen,

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then the harder it will be for us to achieve complete equality.

You are such a materialist Queenie.

Why would a divine being who holds all the aces wish to get equality with a load of saps. Women had official equality in the Soviet Union and they mended the roads. Do you really want to mend the roads and fix the downed powerlines in a blizzard or are you just talking about equality in those effete professions that ladies of your class aspire to join.

Feminism applies to all women and not just to the cosseted daughters of the middle class.

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@spendius,

Whenever women have insisted on absolute equality with men, they have invariably wound up with the dirty end of the stick. What they are and what they can do makes them superior to men, and their proper tactic is to demand special privileges, all the traffic will bear. They should never settle merely for equality. For women, "equality" is a disaster."
" Robert A. Heinlein

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@spendius,

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I think you might be presuming that what is satisfying to you is equally satisfying to other young ladies.

I didn't go to my prom because I was like Gala - I was dating a young male who was six years older than me and he wouldn't have been caught dead at a highschool prom. I didn't care either - we went on a hike instead.
You also would have to pay me to go shopping with the girls.
Be that as it may - a lot of young women DO happen to care about those activities. I know this for a fact, having observed how the huge majority of young women I've always been surrounded by seem to enjoy these activities.

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And why does this fantasy baby have colic? It is much more likely to be smiling and gurgling in response to its mother's love and being an endless source of fascination to her as she observes its growth and takes pride in its progress.

And people call you a cynic...It's not either or spendius- why does everything have to be either/or with you (Bob Dylan OR the Beatles for instance instead of Bob Dyland AND the Beatles)?
Yes, there's nothing more wonderful than having a baby (I believe) but there's also nothing more tiring or able to make one feel more inadequate (especially if you're a young and inexperienced girl without benefit of help from a partner).

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All the more reason to ridicule the ridiculers then.

So the ridiculers should be ridiculed for ridiculing girls who are virgins - but young, single motherhood is something to be aspired to in your book?
How do they become young single mothers and remain virgins?

But I'm asking again, because I feel that I must have been living in another culture for the last forty years if those who are not virgins are stigmatized. I've gone to highschool, college, and university, worked in highschools, watched movies, etc. and I don't think that women are particularly stigmatized for losing their virginity anymore in our culture.
In fact, I always end up feeling that I didn't start having sex early enough and didn't have it with enough people when I go by everything I see around me.
So where is this stigmatizing occurring?

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@spendius,

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Women had official equality in the Soviet Union and they mended the roads. Do you really want to mend the roads and fix the downed powerlines in a blizzard or are you just talking about equality in those effete professions that ladies of your class aspire to join.

Yes but gaining complete equality in England isn't going to make any woman mend roads, unless they want to, of course.
Plus I'm not trying to argue against my biology. The male body is stronger, and therefore probably better for mending roads.

And also, I am not middle class. My dad was an engineer and my mum was a 'lunchtime assistant'. Although nowadays we can escape our class background with a loan and a degree.

And yes, in a certain sense I am a materialist and I do want a ******* good job and the money and the respect that goes with it.

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@spendius,

And also, what proffesions are we talking about if they are being described as effete?

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@aidan,

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So the ridiculers should be ridiculed for ridiculing girls who are virgins - but young, single motherhood is something to be aspired to in your book?

Yes--ridiculers of a girl choosing to remain a virgin deserve to be ridiculed. What motives would people have who ridiculed a girl choosing to stay a virgin.

I never said that teenage motherhood is something to be aspired to.

I'm not stigmatising anybody. They all have a perfect right to their choice. I'll stigmatise those who ridicule the choice of others in this regard.

There are 11 states which set the age of consent at 18. The majority set it at 16 which is the same as in the UK and, I would guess, the rest of Europe.

That is tantamount to official approval of teenage motherhood.

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@Gala,

That's not the point, the point is, you're putting all the responsibility of not getting pregnant on the female. Sure, condoms break, but men are equally responsible if the woman gets knocked up.
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That would be nice and surely fair and the society is doing it very best to make that so however for the most part it is not a fact the the man is as harm by a unplanned our of web-lock birth to the same degree that the female is and her family for that matter.

The universe is how it is not how we would wish it to be.

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@The Pentacle Queen,

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And also, what proffesions are we talking about if they are being described as effete?

Aw- come on Queenie- you know what I mean. The arty-farty brigade.

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@BillRM,

A bloke is totally responsible for a pregnancy. Isn't the idea of sexual ecstasy that the lady gets to the point of not knowing where she is or what day it is?

What are we talking about here? Is she supposed to keep all her wits about her? If a bloke can't take care of her at that point what does it say about him?

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@spendius,

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I'm not stigmatising anybody. They all have a perfect right to their choice. I'll stigmatise those who ridicule the choice of others in this regard.

I wasn't addressing that question to you - sorry. I was addressing that question to Diest and I think it was Gala who were having the conversation about how women are treated differently around the loss of their virginity than men are. And I agree that that used to be the case, very definitely, but I was asking them where/when/how they saw evidence of this still being the case now, because I see evidence that leads me to believe that exactly the opposite is true.

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What motives would people have who ridiculed a girl choosing to stay a virgin.

I don't know. I just know it happens. Probably because it makes people feel better about their own choice to ridicule others who make a different choice.

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I never said that teenage motherhood is something to be aspired to.

No, but you seemed to be outlining the positives inherent in that state without stating the negatives. I have gotten the impression from what you've written that you see it as being a fairly positive situation for mother, child and grandparents.

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There are 11 states which set the age of consent at 18. The majority set it at 16 which is the same as in the UK and, I would guess, the rest of Europe.

That is tantamount to official approval of teenage motherhood.

I can't really argue with that except to say that there seems to be official approval of a lot of things that don't render the best and most fulfilling results for the participants. That's why personal responsibility is so important.

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What qualifies a man to talk about an issue like feminism?

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