THE WISDOM OF ARMING IN SELF DEFENSE

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

The FACT is, that ON AVERAGE, people who have a loaded weapon in their home are LESS SAFE. So by advocating for EVERYONE to have weapons, you are advocating for an INCREASE in homicides and accidental shootings.

Now this is an argument I can get behind. I'd add to it by saying that it may contribute to a culture of gun ownership and violence that raises the danger for all (I'll note that I'm less convinced of this these days than I used to be).

0 Replies

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

David often makes the case that carrying a gun is the end-all be-all of personal safety. I think that's both simplistic and flat-out wrong.

No argument here either.

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Robert Gentel wrote:
the gun control side.

I'm not really advocating gun control, except in the sense that people should make good,
well-informed decisions.

Deciding to have a weapon in the house is a big decision;
I think that lots of people don't have a clue as to many of the dangers.

David often makes the case that carrying a gun
is the end-all be-all of personal safety.
I think that's both simplistic and flat-out wrong.

Now Y do u have to be that way??
That 's not what I said; I 'm not that out-of-touch psychotic
to believe THAT.

I re-iterate that if u are armed then u are safer
in that u are better prepared to address a predatory emergency,
but I am aware that people carrying guns can still get hit by cars
or by lightning, or get caught in fires, or get food poisoning,
or slip on ice or be defrauded or drown while sailing boats.

I did not claim that possession of a gun renders u 100% safe; just safer.

I can attest from personal experience
that in a predatory emergency, it is better to reach for a gun
than it woud be to reach for NOTHING and to give yourself into the predator 's discretion.

`

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Quote:

Oooh. Scary story.

Its easy for YOU to scoff;
not so easy for the victims of gun control (children) who got killed.

Quote:

But I can find a lot more scary stories of how little Johnny found his Daddy's gun.

I hope that Johnny was sufficiently well trained qua safety.

Quote:

Or how Mr. and Mrs. Johnson got in a fight,
and Mrs. Johnson blasted Mr. Johnson to smithereens.

Maybe he deserved it,
depending on what he was doing to her at the time.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

I'm guessing you've never had much exposure to kids in your adult life.

Some, but not much. U guessed right.

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@MontereyJack,

MontereyJack wrote:

It's not that easy to do serious accidental or intentional damage
to yourself or someone else with a spare tire.
It is VERY easy with a gun.

True of knives, axes and cars; it pays to be careful.

David

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Its easy for YOU to scoff;
not so easy for the victims of gun control (children) who got killed.

There's so much wrong with that statement, it's hard to know where to start.

How is gun control responsible for some crazy person running amok? You are certain that without gun control laws, this tragedy could have been avoided? ONLY gun control laws cause people to lock up their guns? Your fetish is affecting your judgment.

WHAT IF the parents had been home? WHAT IF the parents had taken their children with them? WHAT IF an older person had been left in charge? WHAT IF an alarm system had been in place and armed? A million what-ifs, including the what-if of "what if the guns had been available?" WHAT IF she shot at the intruder and hit a kid instead? WHAT IF she shot, missed, and got knocked on her ass long enough for the intruder to get to her? WHAT IF the guns had been unlocked and unloaded; would she have tried to take the time to load and been caught herself?

The intruder obviously wasn't scared of guns; he attacked armed police officers with a frickin' pitchfork.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Heres a note sent to me from a relative who lives in the very town that this old guy was from.

Quote:

A 74 year old Lewes, Delaware man used a machete and his .25 caliber pistol to defend himself against a pair of home invaders who were threatening his life.

Police say that a 74 year old home owner, whose name has not been released, returned to his home on the 19000 block of Bee Jay Ln to find an unexpected vehicle near his driveway. The home owner also noticed that the front door to his home had been kicked in, and that the side door was open. Two home invaders approached the home owner at the side door to his house, and tried to explain their presence on his property by saying they were "looking to purchase a dump truck." The home owner then asked the two home invaders to leave his property, but they refused and advanced on him. One of the home invaders grabbed a landscaping tool, and threatened the home owner's life. At this point the 74 year old home owner grabbed a machete that was next to the door and cut the home invader several times in the arm and hand. Undeterred, both home invaders continued to advance on the home owner, at which point he drew his .25 caliber pistol and shot the other home invader in the abdomen. Both home invaders then fled. One suspect, Gregory B. Stewart, was found at a local hospital suffering from a gunshot wound to the stomach. The other suspect, Paul L. Spencer, was found at his nearby home. Spencer was arrested and charged with 2nd degree burglary, 2nd degree conspiracy, menacing, and criminal mischief. A warrant for Stewart's arrest on the same charges has been issued as well, and Stewart is expected to be arrested upon release from the hospital. The 74 year old home owner was unharmed.

WITHOUT any futher comment except that the old guy was aparently clear enough of mind to brandish a pistol and a machete.

2 Replies

@farmerman,

I you go to a map aervice and key in BeeJay Lane (off of Beaver Dam Road near the West side of coastal rt 1), you will see that this guys home is the only home on that road. Its a larger farm house and is surrounded by fields and woods. Its nicely secluded for such a robbery.
The old guy, it has been said, is more like "Uncle Junior Soprano" than Mr Magoo.

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@farmerman,

Again, a single anecdote does not provide any evidence one way or the other. Old guy living alone? I couldn't care less, really.

Child Critically Injured by Stashed Gun

Quote:

A 12-year-old boy who was accidentally shot in Oakland Friday night when he and his friends found a loaded shotgun is in grave condition Sunday, a police spokesman said.

The boy was playing in the parking garage of his apartment building at 427 Foothill Blvd. with some friends around 8 p.m. when they found the shotgun, Oakland police spokesman Jeff Thomason said.

The kids, believing it wasn't loaded, began playing with it in a game of cops and robbers.

One of the kids pulled the trigger, firing a round of buck shot that struck the child in the face.

...

http://www.childinjurylawyerblog.com/2008/10/boy_accidentally_shoots_himsel.html

Quote:

Boy Accidentally Shoots Himself with an Uzi at Westfield, Massachusetts Gun Show - Legal Rights and Responsibilities

Uzi.jpg

Christopher Bizilj, an eight year old from Ashford, Connecticut, died as a result of an Uzi sub-machine gun accidental shooting at the Machine Gun Show and Firearms Expo at the Westfield, Massachusetts Sportsman's Club. Christopher's father had given permission for his son to handle the gun prior to the incident. It is interesting to note that the father, Charles Bizilj, is the Director of Emergency Medicine at Johnson Memorial Hospital in Stafford, Connecticut. As such, it would appear that Dr. Bizilj has seen his fair share of gun shot wounds and injuries - both intentional and accidental type of shootings.

While Christopher was shooting the Uzi, it recoiled, he lost control, and then accidentally shot himself in the head. This is a true tragic course of events for the Bizilj Family and all involved with the incident.

The shooting shows the importance of gun safety and the dangers of putting a high powered weapon into the hands of an eight year old.

...

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/marion_county/Teen_hospitalized_after_gun_accident_20090829

Quote:

Teen hospitalized after gun accident
Two 13-year-olds were playing with loaded gun

Updated: Sunday, 30 Aug 2009, 6:27 AM EDT
Published : Saturday, 29 Aug 2009, 10:41 PM EDT

* Gene Rodriguez
* Edited by Jackie Carpenter

INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) - The city’s latest shooting involves children; teens who police say were home alone with a loaded gun.

Children were seen riding their bikes and walking the sidewalks, dozens of them talking and playing together. But Saturday afternoon a game of gunplay at a home on the city's southwest side landed one child in a hospital emergency room.

It appears to be a child friendly neighborhood. Evidence of children is everywhere. But instead of playing, boys were sitting in patrol cars Saturday being questioned about what happened in the 5800 block of Coppock Drive.

“Clearly 13-year olds and firearms don’t mix," IMPD Capt. Craig Fishburn said.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

It wasnt intended in an anecdotal game of one upsmanship. The old guy lives near an area where some friends have a summer beach house. The old guy is well known and , of course , he was probably targeted by the foolish intruders. I guess I dont fully understand, are you against the toatal banning of guns for any household protection? In that case, your only defense is reliance on statistics. (Im sorry, Ill keep a gun either trigger locked with a reqlly fast release or a gun safe with same) The gun, to be a useful tool, needs to be available to the homeowner, but, at the same time unavailable to family members who arent old enough or responsible enough.

The stories about the kid who shot himself with the maxhine gun shows how irresponsibility can lead to disaster. Also , the same admonition applies to the kid with the shotgun who shot the face off a friend.
Thats more an argument for care taken by the gun owner for keeping the gun out of reach or hidden from kids. AND, of course, anyon who lets a small kid fire a full auto weapon should be locked up for depraved indifference.

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If OmsigDAVID is correct in his beliefs on guns, I can imagine a office building where a depressant or just fired employee, sits at his desk then suddenly pulls out his rapid fire automatic in his holster turns around kills everybody then sets off to continue his killing-- next ing there are dozens and dozens of armed people sneaking around trying to find the one doing the killing -- on David's way of looking at it, they would shoot the first person they saw with a gun in their hand

1 Reply

@tenderfoot,

tenderfoot wrote:

If OmsigDAVID is correct in his beliefs on guns, I can imagine a office building where a depressant or just fired employee, sits at his desk then suddenly pulls out his rapid fire automatic in his holster turns around kills everybody then sets off to continue his killing-- next ing there are dozens and dozens of armed people sneaking around trying to find the one doing the killing -- on David's way of looking at it, they would shoot the first person they saw with a gun in their hand

No; its very simple. If u come under attack, u return fire,
trying to kill your assailant as soon as possible, the same as the police do, or the same as any army does.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

I am curious David...in a hypothetical, would you be happy if no one had guns ? I know you will say that will never happen, but in theory could you live in a world where no one has guns ?

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

I am curious David...in a hypothetical, would you be happy if no one had guns ?

I am acutely cognizant of the fact that man rose to the top
of the food chain thru the logical use of tools, most specifically of weapons.
That is to say: possession of good and competent weapons
was the difference in outcome qua whether u and your mother 'd
be food or be fed; to MY mind, that is a big difference.

My country got free by the adroit use of weapons.
Bottom line: I love all useful tools, e.g. cars, Hi Definition TVs,
microwave ovens, orbiting satellites . . . . actually, its a long list.

I don 't see myself carrying around a bow and a quiver of arrows
for my personal defense; ungainly, awkward, unfeasible.
My guns are much nicer, more compact and neat.

The answer to your question is: NO.
If no one had guns: I 'd begin a career in gunsmithing.
I already possess the blueprints and production instructions
for some submachineguns from Paladin Press.
A new acquaintance of mine makes large bore revolvers by hand
for sale in gunstores. He is meticulously attentive to detail.

I will add that altho there was a time that I deemed myself
strong n agile, well able to handle myself, there was a time (2005)
when I was confined to a hospital for abdominal surgery
and defeating its subsequent infection. I was debilitated
to the extent of having lost my ability to walk (for a while).

My recovery has been less than 100%.
I don 't go running around so casually anymore.
If I had to defend myself from predatory violence (again),
I 'd be lost without my personal firearm.
I doubt that I 'd thrive in a knife fight.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

The FACT is, that ON AVERAGE, people who have a loaded weapon
in their home are LESS SAFE. So by advocating for EVERYONE to
have weapons, you are advocating for an INCREASE in homicides and accidental shootings.

Firstly: I don 't believe u.
Secondly: every person has an absolute right and a natural right and a constitutional right to defend his life
from predatory violence EFFECTIVELY (meaning by use of competent tools).

This is true, regardless of whether u approve or not.

The same as I woud not surrender MY rights of self defense,
so also I wish to respect the same right of other citizens.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

Firstly: I don 't believe u.

It is true. Matters like domestic violence, depression, etc involve death and serious wounding more frequently where there are guns in the house.

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@OmSigDAVID,

I understand your point. The weak can defend themselves far better with a gun. But isnt it also true the violent can be far more violent ? Having guns simply ups the ante without seeing who has the winning hand.

1 Reply

Tenderfoot wrote:

If OmsigDAVID is correct in his beliefs on guns, I can imagine a office building where a depressant or just fired employee, sits at his desk then suddenly pulls out his rapid fire automatic in his holster turns around kills everybody then sets off to continue his killing-- next ing there are dozens and dozens of armed people sneaking around trying to find the one doing the killing -- on David's way of looking at it, they would shoot the first person they saw with a gun in their hand
..........

David reply
No; its very simple. If u come under attack, u return fire,
Trying to kill your assailant as soon as possible, the same as the police do, or the same as any army does.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
But they don't know they have a assailant, the only one's that do... are dead.
So in your words. You go and try to find the assailant, meaning the dozens of the one's alive would armed -with revolvers in hand, go looking,. I can imagine the gun fire that would go on then..especially if they were like you.

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

I understand your point. The weak can defend themselves far better with a gun.
But isnt it also true the violent can be far more violent ?

Have u ever heard of Timothy McVeigh? He was well known in America
for his pyrotechnically killing 168 people with no gun.
Remember that before committing a predatory act,
a predator can take as much time and effort in planning
and in equipping himself as he chooses. He can either buy blackmarket guns
or make them himself and keep them or sell them.

Ionus wrote:

Having guns simply ups the ante without seeing who has the winning hand.

America was founded by successful revolutionaries who knew the value of weapons.
Thay put any control of guns beyond the jurisdictional reach
of any government in America. A citizen woud be a fool -- to try to assist criminalsl

1 Reply

THE WISDOM OF ARMING IN SELF DEFENSE

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