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Patriotism: Trash or Treasure?

 
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 05:37 pm
Oh, but Lola, I could have said SO much more......
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 05:47 pm
It's okay, BBB. We were all taken in. I'm even trying to fine time in my schedule to make it to Denver and be suckered again.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 05:48 pm
Lola
Lola, quick! Round up the censors. Diane is about to tell all. Embarrassed
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 05:54 pm
dlowan wrote:
Ok - how do we love a country? Now - landscape I understand - but a country? Do people espouse to love a sort of Platonic ideal of their country, or their actual nuts and bolts neighbours, the fella who farts in the lift, the back alley where the cats piss, the local sewerage farm, the Empire State Building, the Metropolitan Museum of Art?


Yes, yes and yes - all of that! (Well, in my case of the Dutch equivalents).

I dont have much up with my state, my government, "our borders" ... but there's something abstract, lingering in the confluence of random impressions - the style of a building, the illuminated rooftop advertisement you've seen from the train since you went to the zoo with your dad, the raincoat of an old man that vaguely reminds you of your grandfather's, the mohawk of a punk, the slogan on a wall and its phlegmatic irony, the shape of the clouds (always the clouds, banks of clouds, shafts of light, flutters of grey, white and blue), the feel of the breeze when you step out from the station's back exit, the sound of the seagulls, the sullen, sometimes gloomily imposing grey of the waves, the smell of fish, the absent stare of passengers on the ferry, the jovial, colloquial speech of the bus driver, the sight of a sign on an old warehouse that once sold "potatoes", the headscarves of the Moroccan mothers with their prams, the drawbridge over the canal where they opened that new, trendy place, the checkered gingham on the folksy seventies plates they sell inside as newly rediscovered camp, the stubby cigar you sometimes still see old men smoke who once sold cattle in auction-halls where now young, hippy-looking Poles whom you remember from the club from when you shared an E sell you second-hand cars, the swish of bikes in the park, the "soft g" of the rapper from Limburg, the annoying wheez of the new trains, the memory of the white dirty tables in the train's "dining car" where you could order a plastic cup of coffee at best and stickers told you not to play cards or drink, the sigh, joke or rant that'll still go with the intercom message of yet another delay, the black and white cows outside in layer after layer of damp green field and hedge, the fatty accent of the big-town mamma and the annoyed look of the girl with the walkman and the blond hair, the Turkish guy playing his flute, always, when you arrive back home, the yellowish light of the lanterns in the sidestreet, the tiny blue square lights fitted in between the pavement stones of an alleyway no-one, ever, enters at the order of a civil servant with a keen sense for the whimsical, the dreamy tile pasted on the same alley's wall, like many others with each a different little graffitied painting that have kept cropping up in random other places thanks to who knows what kind of gentle-minded art rebel, the TV commercial of the country's biggest bank with its universally recognizable theme tune called "fifteen million people", that goes with random images of people like those described above (junk as well as young mother, gabba-houser as well as granma, all welcome as client), the gameshow host that everyone has the same ghastly memories of and the thick, lamenting, Dutch-language tear-jerkers with the lyrics you'd otherwise only find in Greek or Arab, the newspapers with their understated headlines and ever-present columnists reflecting on the little, ordinary things, the total lack of pride in army, history, conquest or victory and the massive, near-unanimous, spontaneous party frenzy when the soccer team wins, the Loesje posters, the skaters and how they get to negotiate with city officials about the exact location of their skating rink, the narrow, slanted houses at leafy canals, the narrower houses still in the streets that intersect them, the squatted abandoned warehouse opposite the water from where a pensioner who used to work there sits at his open window with the TV on in the background and a cup of coffee on the embroidered cloth on the little table, the endless variations of cheesy porcelain animals on windowsills in working-class neigbourhoods, the "peace" posters in the better-off neighbourhoods where the young fathers "drive" the baby's buggy and argue always so reasonably when their five-year old wants an ice-cream, the elegant white transparency of the new city hall and the tram terminals - yellow, short trams - that used to be there before - all of that makes much more than a landscape or a set of friends and family and random places you've lived - there's a connection, sometimes contre coeur, sometimes sensed in gratitude, that ties you with "these" people, this land - home.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 05:54 pm
Lola? Lola for censor? Lola's avatar would embarass a rock, and you would put her in charge.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 05:58 pm
i am going to be sooooooo embarassed at having posted that just now ...





LOL at Dys' self-description, btw ;-)
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 06:00 pm
embarassed for what, nimh?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 06:09 pm
man! (nimh finally read up) - dys' got a fanclub! thats cool <nods>. "voorwaarts, en niet vergeten - de so-li-dari-teit!, tatadata ta ta tadah"
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 06:10 pm
nimh
nimh, I thought it was wonderful.

BBB
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 06:12 pm
nimh
nimh, Dys' fanclub will only last until Perception gives up and finds another target. Then we will go back to bashing Dys on his skinny butt.

BBB
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 06:53 pm
why embarassed? i dunno ... perhaps cause its probably the very first time i ever wrote, "i love my country", anywhere - and bang, i just went and said it across an entire computer screen's length.

is it patriotism? i think so. it's not nationalism - it's not the dutch nation that i love - i cant remember ever having been particularly glad to meet another dutchman abroad.

of course, the love doesnt stop at the country's immediate borders, either. its got to do with "home" - and part of home is that abstract, diverse community of people who've made up the backdrop of your life for all your years - and part of it is the physical backdrop, the urban and rural "landscape".

together, they form an entity of sorts, where things are "different" from elsewhere - and which you've come to love in a love/hate kind of way. which you've come to feel an emotional - but not necessarily political! - loyalty to. that emotional loyalty is part of patriotism - the political would have been the other part.

of course, that post up there's not the whole story. because everytime i return to prague, for example, i rush to the river to see the bridges and the swans, and i rush into the adjoining neighbourhoods to absorb the mood, the colours - and i feel the same surge of attachment, love even - some kind of sense of "returning home", in fact - even though i've never been there more than 10 days at a stretch, and i dont speak czech.

same in budapest (which i would say i love more, though i have less of that feeling), berlin, even paris and rome.

but then, who says there can be no such thing as european patriotism? why not? if there is a european identity or loyalty (which, i think, there is nowadays), couldnt there be european patriotism, too?

i wouldnt fight if holland "threatened" to be annexed into one european state. but i might well be prepared to fight if europe threatened to be annexed into an american-, russian- or, whatever ... say, lybian-dominated state. <nods>
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 06:57 pm
bbb, lol.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 07:00 pm
Laughing
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 07:16 pm
Quote:
...Only perpetual war can overturn the modern project, with its emphasis on self-preservation and "creature comforts." Life can be politicised once more, and man's humanity can be restored.

This terrifying vision fits perfectly well with the desire for honour and glory that the neo-conservative gentlemen covet. It also fits very well with the religious sensibilities of gentlemen. The combination of religion and nationalism is the elixir that Strauss advocates as the way to turn natural, relaxed, hedonistic men into devout nationalists willing to fight and die for their God and country.
I never imagined when I wrote my first book on Strauss that the unscrupulous elite that he elevates would ever come so close to political power, nor that the ominous tyranny of the wise would ever come so close to being realised in the political life

This quotation is from an interview with a Leo Strauss scholar. Strauss is the political philosopher upon whose ideas the American 'neocon' crowd are operating. If you don't read anything else this week, READ THIS PIECE.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-3-77-1542.jsp
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 08:11 pm
nimh, your writing always stirs me, especially when you've written about Anastasia, but this description of your home is put so beautifully and is so universal, that I think anyone could identify with it.

The ordinary people, places, smells and predictability of the familiar, make us feel so welcome and secure that I guess it is a form of patriotism--emotional, not political or exclusionary.

I found it interesting that you have a feeling for Europe as well as for Holland. Do you think it has increased since the advent of the Euro?
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 08:14 pm
BBB, you had to go and tell about his skinny ass Confused . Oh well, he isn't perfect after all.

Roger, come to Denver and be suckered all over again anytime at all. Very Happy
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 08:27 pm
But BBB, what Diane says about Dys..........somehow, I believe it, skinny ass of not. I guess it's the long leather booties.......and that friendly, knowing smile....

I didn't really mean to censor you Diane, (Rog knew I wasn't up to it anyway by lookin at my avatar) Go ahead, we could hear a little more. For those of us who are in longing mode, it does the heart good. Please, tell us more. :wink:

And yes, Blatham........the neocon version of patriotism is to be fought against........absolutely breathtaking, as this scholar says in her interview, that they could be so much in control and so few recognize the imminent danger. I only hope when those who are drinking with enthusiasm at the fountain of machiavellian patriotism recognize the danger, it's not too late.
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 09:11 pm
LOL, lola, I don't think anyone could censor me unless I was in agreement with the censor (or unless I was thrown off a2k-which might happen).

As for saying more, I feel that some things are best left to the imagination. :wink:
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 09:13 pm
Oh darn.... I was dying to know if it was the leggings that made him so great in bed. :::pout:::
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2003 09:16 pm
side note....timber looks like the bass player for zztop
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